GM Pellegrini in Black Belt!

[Hollywood1340]

My Sabum has also trained extensivly in traditional Hapkido. I do find that "pure" CH is lacking depth and feeling when it comes to the Do side of things and am pushing him to add some of that back. I like to think I move well for my level, but feel I'm missing some of the depth I would like to have as far as understanding the how and the why. Not sure if what I just typed made sense, but yeah. Everything should be taken with a grain of salt. CH works, but as was already mentioned, not for everyone. I've been blessed with an instructor who really has brodened my horizons and am glad to be having to work for what I recieve. I just thought it was cool to see my GM in BB.

 

[Chattan]

Lets look at this from a different perspective. Lets remove the political and lineage arguments and view this from a purely functional and effective point of view. Are the techniques, tactics and strategies taught in the article of use before, during and after violent altercations? Can the 35 year old mother of 2 apply what is taught and survive a violent assault? It has the word "combat" placed in front and its focus is completely focused on self-defense. So, is this "art" effective in developing self-defense skills or not? Joe.

 

[Hollywood1340]

It can depend on how it's taught. The teacher can have a huge influence on what you gain from an art. If taught correctly, yes. If not, I woudn't count on it.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Chattan:

"......Can the 35 year old mother of 2 apply what is taught and survive a violent assault? It has the word "combat" placed in front and its focus is completely focused on self-defense. So, is this "art" effective in developing self-defense skills or not?...."

IMVHO I think the question is not CAN she-- but WILL she. In my teaching experience I continue to see students, even experienced students unable to do what is required of them even to protect themselves from serious harm. Way too much training on going through the motions and not enough time spent on hardening the intent to do whatever is necessary to survive. ICHF has no particular corner on this market one way or another. As was pointed out, it has just about everything to do with the attitude that the teacher imbues in the student. The student actually must be convinced that they are worthy of being protected at all costs and this in itself is a real challenge in todays' world.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Chattan]

I agree with what has been said but this did not answer my question. Are the techniques, tactics and strategies valuable and applicable to self-defense? Self-defense has to be looked at from three points, they are: physical, psychological and emotional. It is certainly true that a person must have a good teacher and must be willing to use their skills when required. This all goes back to how the training is performed. The training must include all three points above and be done against a resisting opponent that simulates a violent encounter. Any and all techniques taught must be able to be used during the stress of a violent encounter.

So, back to my original question. Are the techniques, tactics, strategies and training provided by "Combat Hapkido" effective and functional. Now the response was focused on not only can they make it work but will they. Again, does Combat Hapkido prepare one to defend themselves so when faced with a violent encounter the person is able to use their training and survive?

 

[glad2bhere]

"......So, back to my original question. Are the techniques, tactics, strategies and training provided by "Combat Hapkido" effective and functional. Now the response was focused on not only can they make it work but will they. Again, does Combat Hapkido prepare one to defend themselves so when faced with a violent encounter the person is able to use their training and survive?...."

No. And neither does any other system taught in any other country at any other time or any other place. I can completely disable an individual of any size under any circumstances simply by thrusting a finger into his eye and bursting his eyeball. The question is, will I? Will I accept permanently blinding another human being in defense of myself? Please don't preach about what will be done under duress. The fact is that none of us know WHAT we will do under duress. How many men and women have been raped and of those people how many would do permanent damage to their attackers in protection of themselves.
A person will kick and punch, scratch and bite but how many will permanently disable another human being. This a choice that one faces and I can tell you that just about everyone I know is not up to taking responsibility for this sort of action regardless of their training or art.

Lets take the question one step farther. WOULD you want to be able to do such things to another human being? It is possible to develop this kind of ethos. A trained assassin can take a life very matter-of-factly, and some of the most repugnant torturers in history were highly educated individuals. The fact is that despite all the fancy talk about "deadly hands" and such, the typical person simply wants to posture in such a way as to convince himself that he can take care of himself when he needs to. Its an illusion that people who exploit portions of various Oriental cultures use to make a dollar. My suggestion, for what its worth, is if you are THAT concerned about surviving in an urban environment you start carrying a gun in your belt and a razor in your shoe and hunker down in your home after the sun goes down.
FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[markulous]

Originally posted by Chattan
So, back to my original question. Are the techniques, tactics, strategies and training provided by "Combat Hapkido" effective and functional. Now the response was focused on not only can they make it work but will they. Again, does Combat Hapkido prepare one to defend themselves so when faced with a violent encounter the person is able to use their training and survive?

Yes and No. It obviously depends on the individual. I take what is good out of an art, that works for me. Combat Hapkido is a great combination of locks and traps, mixed with strikes. It's a very useful tool that is evolved. But to me, if you limit yourself to one "style" it doesn't prepare you enough to defend yourself.

 

[Chattan]

Markulous-Thank you for answering my question with maturity.

 

[Disco]

Chattan, I would suggest getting a copy of the March Black Belt Mag. Pellegrini has a 4 page spread detailing 3 techniques. Give us your opinion of what you see.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn

 

[Disco]

It's been a couple of days, would anyone else care to offer a critique?

 

[shadow warrior]

I too have seen a few of Grandmaster Myung's 2nd and 3rd dans when I visited him a couple of times. Once in the late 80's and once in the late 90's.

They exhibited some high level kicking and twisting skill although their freefighting was not 'dynamic'. One thing was evident on my second visit, GM P did NOT learn his kicking at Master Myung's. (GM P still snap kicks in his Tae Kwon Do mechanics).

GM Pellegrini is NOT Hapkido in the lineage sense. Some of the techniques are similar but there is no technique integration in a foundation sense. It seems as a Kwan which is somewhat removed from circle, flow, harmony. He even went outside his own skill sets to include, cane and MMA style grappling among other aspects.

A close examination of the techniques depicted in the BB article reveal some fundemental flaws. For example in frame three page 91 GMP FAILS to maintain "sticky hands" and releases the opponent's right hand before grabbing it again..without even covering his own thumb for support..WHITE BELT MISTAKE!! There are MORE!!

If there were no market for "junk" there would be much less of it!!

 

[Hollywood1340]

I too have seen a few of Grandmaster Myung's 2nd and 3rd dans when I visited him a couple of times. Once in the late 80's and once in the late 90's.

They exhibited some high level kicking and twisting skill although their freefighting was not 'dynamic'. One thing was evident on my second visit, GM P did NOT learn his kicking at Master Myung's. (GM P still snap kicks in his Tae Kwon Do mechanics).

GM Pellegrini is NOT Hapkido in the lineage sense. Some of the techniques are similar but there is no technique integration in a foundation sense. It seems as a Kwan which is somewhat removed from circle, flow, harmony. He even went outside his own skill sets to include, cane and MMA style grappling among other aspects.

A close examination of the techniques depicted in the BB article reveal some fundemental flaws. For example in frame three page 91 GMP FAILS to maintain "sticky hands" and releases the opponent's right hand before grabbing it again..without even covering his own thumb for support..WHITE BELT MISTAKE!! There are MORE!!

If there were no market for "junk" there would be much less of it!!

Myself a Combat Hapkidoian aside, I've always found post like this interesting. Take TKD fighting. I've talked to people who will tell you until their blue in the face that it can't work but it does. Look at any of the other forums, EPAK, BJJ, or Escrima. Varying points of opinion will never match up, and in the end it's important for those of that view point to stick to it. Because we are all right. And all wrong. :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear C. Crews:
Just a quick comment on your post, and I will start off by saying that I agree with your sentiments. What I would like to do is point out something that just happened between your post and that of Mike.

As so often with strings like this it is possible to be critical of the person OR HOW he does something, OR WHY he does something. I don't know that we are well-served being critical of Pelligrini in and of himself. For my part I don't go along with what he does, but thats my personal choice. Where I think we miss the boat in discussions like this is in not taking the lead that someone (in this case Mike) gives by opening the door to actually discuss the HOW-s and WHY-s of a particular persons' approach. Now, I will say that there are dangers here. I was once very critical of Ji Han Jaes' teaching methods and voiced my criticism on another Net. Took quite a beating from that one!! However, if it is possible to put loyalties to one side and just examine the biomechnics of what is done independent of who is doing it, there is the promise of a very informative string here. Now, I would need a bit more info from Mike about the technique and what was done, as compared with how he would execute the technique, and this can get a bit laborious, if not tedious. All the same, I think the promise is there. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Hollywood1340]

LOL, my name is James Maxwell. C. Crews is our local EPAK teacher. He told me that once so I added it to my sig...methinks I need to fix that. I've never belived CHKD to be an as is system. For me it gives me a basis of motion and idea and a conceptual vehicle to get the job done. This is in part due to the way I was taught the system, a good teacher can not be overstated. I can't comment on the techs, as I don't have them in front of me. But on the first question, does it work? As I and others have said earlier, yes, if taught correctly and if trained right. That is the same for any art, stystem or style.
Now on to this thread and to the post I have replied to earlier. Let me preface by saying I only wish to understand and discuss. I like to think I have an open mind.

GM Pellegrini is NOT Hapkido in the lineage sense. Some of the techniques are similar but there is no technique integration in a foundation sense. It seems as a Kwan which is somewhat removed from circle, flow, harmony. He even went outside his own skill sets to include, cane and MMA style grappling among other aspects.

So has every other martial art. In "our" opinion, this is a good thing. It has given us more tools to use outside of the traditional HKD path. If you look at our system, and it's use and reason for exsitence it makes sense. We've never claimed to be anything that we aren't. (Save mabye for the HKD thing, but I'll leave that up to others. Like the Choi/Takada thing) GM.P had a great interview in the April 1994 issue of TKDT that deals with the issue of our creation.

A close examination of the techniques depicted in the BB article reveal some fundemental flaws. For example in frame three page 91 GMP FAILS to maintain "sticky hands" and releases the opponent's right hand before grabbing it again..without even covering his own thumb for support..WHITE BELT MISTAKE!! There are MORE!!

Sir, my issue is not on the "fault" of my system. More on how you state it. I see no qualification of said statment. No "In my opinion" or "The way I was taught" or "Because". In my time here on MT, I've discovered a few things. One of them is the need to yell online speaks badly on the person yelling. Your comment is very interesting and I would like to know more. The point of failing to remain in contact is one of the things I have noticed as well. I've never liked letting go to maintain control. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't IMO. Would you explain further how it works and why you do it? I'm intreguied.

This disscussion has been wonderful. The discussion and trading of ideas is what this board is all about. Thank you again

 

[shadow warrior]

When people create images which are in the public domain, these photos should be examined for truth.

Hapkido techniques should display manefestations of essential precepts..circle, flow, harmony and evident in its most effective practitioners..weight transfer.

Borrowing techniques from others has been going on for many generations. Now however, the MMA bandwagon has rolled through and trys to claim an integration of techniques into various (NHB) systems.

If GMP had called his style Combat Arts, or Integrated Self Defence then he would not have rattled so many Hapkido people's cages as much.

By removing many of the more difficult aspects of Hapkido, such as hard breakfall, dynamic throwing and jumping kicks..he has tried to cash in on the name Hapkido without delivering most of the fitness, risk management during training, personal growth realizations, body control, as well as any of the freefighting skills which can be found within serious Hapkido training.

What the Combat Hapkido system 'appears' to be is a collection of various techniques with no consistent principles 'borrowed' from more or less Korean Hapkido.

BB Page 91 1- 6 images.
Releasing an opponents hand while attempting a wrist throw or lock will in most Hapkido Instructor's opinion result in a dramatically reduced effectiveness..or complete failure of the attempt. "Sticky hands" are one of the key elements of effective Hapkido twisting. (This is a critical concept which white belts must understand to become yellow belts). It is also apparent that GMP's feet do not move during the take down phase to create 'weight transfer' which dramatically adds to the power of the technique. This is not a technique from Hapkido as taught to me.

The kicking he displays is Tae Kwon Do kicking. Nothing in common with a more traditional Hapkido approach.

I'm sure GMP is doing VERY WELL thank you very much..through using the name Hapkido AND putting together skill sets which are within the reach of virtually every human who tries..

The only real question becomes has he vetted these techniques through trial and error himself?? Against hostile non co-operative opponents? Not just his students. I can't find any indication that he has any direct personal experience in these matters.

 

[greendragon]

I'm taking the high road here and just let me say that my Hapkido training goes for quite a few years,,, what Pelligrini lost by leapfrogging his way to the ICHF mountain is that he did not spend enough time on the mat in a "learning" phase so he does not have the adequate stepping and basics that "actually" make Hapkido work against an "unwilling" opponent.. in seminars his stuff will work against his guys but without being disrespectful to anyone on here,, you can't learn and understand the stepping and body positioning by hangin out with Hapkido people, you have to become one,, and that can only be done by sweat, pain, and proper teaching from a Hapkido player that isn't a tkd/kempo/jujitsu/samurai/ etc... just get on the mat and learn from qualified people, if you think you can learn Hapkido in a weekend or from a video then I feel sorry for you...
Michael Tomlinson

 

[Disco]

Whatever else can/should be said about Mr. Pellegrini and his system, one has to admitt that he is a Master at marketing. I have heard the stories on how he got his rank and such. Personally, I don't care. What I do care about is if, repeat "IF" the techniques he teaches are valid for everybody to use. I will use page 90 (BB March) for an example. Frame 1&2) He slips to the outside of an incoming right hand punch and uses his right hand to deflect/grab. OK so far. Frame 3) His roundhouse kick reaches all the way across the attacker's body to the lead leg and is attempting a nerve strike. Frame 4) His left hand is getting ready to do something (opened and coming down?) with his focus on the elbow, but in Frame 5 he has made a transition - now in front of the attacker and the left hand that was open in Frame 4, has now switched places with the right hand and his right hand is now on the attacker's shoulder. A note here; the attacker's punching arm has not changed position since the transition, which tells me that the wrist lock that's seen in Frame 6, which has taken the attacker to the floor, was done with the weak hand from an ??? position. In Frame 6) we see that again he has switched hands and now the right hand has the wrist lock and the left is up on the forearm. In Frame 7) now the left hand joins the right in the wrist lock.

I will use Mr. P's words here from the article, describing what he is doing.
"As he closes the gap and initiates the right-hand strike, step forward and to the outside with your left leg. Simultaneously use your right hand to parry his punch, then grab his wrist. The path is now open to disable him with a roundhouse kick to his right leg. Next, use your left hand to seize the elbow of the arm you just grabbed. Lift the limb, then circle it downward while you pivot counter-clockwise. That will cause him to fall on his left side."

Now either this was written wrong or I'm a total moron or the laws of Physics have been altered. What is seen and what is said don't compute. One would have to view the article/pictures to evaluate for themselves. Even with giving the bennefit of the doubt that the technique in question is plausable, there are still elements of the technique that beg, in my opinion, for change. Case in point: Why roundhouse to a front nerve in the leading leg? Instead, roundhouse to the groin or stomach. Even better, a sidekick to the nearest leg, in this case the attacker's right leg, which would force the attacker's body to go into the direction that Mr. P wants him to go anyway. This way the attacker is falling and you don't have to stand in front of him during the transition phase, which if the kick was not successful in it's intent, your giving your back to your attacker while he is still a threat. It just looks like this technique is being forced, there dosen't seem to be a natural flow.

I'm always open for learning something new, so if I am missing something here, please feel free to assist in my education.

 

[shadow warrior]

Disco..

IMO the funniest thing about page 90 frames 3,4,5 is the fact that the 'attacker' is still standing after taking the "nerve" kick to the knee area. Any good Hapkido kicker would cause severe damage to the knee and leg with a properly executed kick similar to that! Yet he remains standing to have GMP execute an elbow attack (why not just break it in frame 4?), spin position change AND a wrist lock ending in a ground control pin. I also wonder why the 'attacker' doesn't just punch GMP left kidney into dialysis from his position (frame 5)..there appears to be no pain compliance technique in play here during transition. This sequence seems to be TOTALLY reliant on the "compliance" of the attacker who behaves in a rote, very co-operative manor. Either the attacker falls down or he is still capable of punching!

GMP (among countless others in BB) looking at the camera instead of the opponent is always a hoot!

Simpler version.. deflect the incoming punch down and away (use open right hand) and release round kick the 'attackers' left knee out (use left leg)..job complete! You could get bonus points for tying him up with his own belt before he wakes up..after you punch his lights out on his way down (use both hands).

This sequence uses many Hapkido principles including hip rotation, weight transfer as derived from circle, flow and harmony. Many nasty stand up joint locks combined with striking can be applied against unco-operative attackers (punchers) from the picture in frame two that do not require six or seven stages..far too long in actual situations.

I personally would never try ANY of the techniques the way they were depicted in BB. These are examples of acedemic applications evidently not generally tested against skilled non compliant opponents! To defuse some critics..IMO..

Clever marketing rules!! You can't argue with a well thought out plan and the good bank balance!


Just a Hapkido student with some experience.

 

[fawkesburning]

How was it self promotional?? If that was the case, then everybody that has a write up in a magazine could be guilty of the same thing right?

Mike

Its self promotion in that Black Belt and other martial arts magazines sell space - ie pay your money - get your article published. You can even buy the cover. Pell might have gotten a freebee because he does so much advertising with them. Ever notice how many ads there are from people that are "featured" there?

Here's my impressions (caveat - in general it's hard to tell from any picture how a something is truly executed - these might work like a charm ):

BUT......here's my impressions

1. The parry/grab just looks like a grab, the kick is unnecessary and breaks the fluidity of the motion. It appears that he's bending forward to take him down instead of using his whole body motion. The lock - He has the guys elbow in relatively correct position then it shift upwards, should be in the relatively same alignment. looks like he's taking one in the balls.

2. The release doesn't use body motion to free the hand. Reaching too far with the elbow needs to move his body closer, bad grip on the attackers hand, not really sure how he's locking the arm, he's above the guys elbow! he could move his knees in and use hips and back leg to put pressure on the elbow or turn the guys thumb up and lock against his front leg shin.

3.The guys arm is already extended so if you are going to use that lock (not my first choice) why kick him away if you trying to move in. he has to switch knees after the take down to kneel on his head, fighting against himself to keep the eagle claw.

4. Not real sure how he's getting the leverage to twist the guys arm, in that position much easier to get locked than control someone. Its an attempt at escrima without the stick for leverage.

white/yellow belt - barely passes

Jon

%-}

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jon:

Good call on the technical analysis. I would only add (underscore) that there are some aspects that are difficult to ascertain or assess from a picture. For myself I am looking for the initial balance-taking that makes the attacker vulnerable to whatever technique follows. Though things like the loading on one leg vs the other are hard to discern, I would think that people examining these pictures should be able to note a significant displacement of the hips relative to the shoulders or perhaps a significant torquing of the spine. This misalignment of the spine not only impacts the attackers ability to assault his victim, but also impedes his ability to resist the execution of the technique. Simply put: no balance = no foundation from which to act. From this point of view, the best that I could say about the technique is that its the stuff of which the average "self-defense class" is made. Nothing particularly impressive and only a dim shadow of what actual Hapkido is about. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce