Getting cut

[fist of fury]

I haven't started any knife defenses yet so bare with me if this sounds stupid. But from what I've observed in watching knife defenses it's seems almost certain that you will get cut so you just try and limit the severity. And to limit the amount of damage you take is done by letting the outside of the arm get cut so no major arteries get cut. Is this someahat correct I know there's more to it and you try to avoid getting cut at all.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Getting cut depends on a few things,like do you train with a live blade or a training blade, the speed you practice at, how competent your training partner is with the blade.
If you train with a live blade Yes you will get cut sooner or later ( if you are realy practicing not just doing moves)
As to how to do the techniques to lessen the chance of a serious cut. Well that is for your instructor to tell you Listen well and pray he knows his stuff.
Shadow

 

[Despairbear]

One of the problems with getting cut anywhere is not just blood loss but tissue damage. Even a cut to the back of the arm can sever muscule and tendons that will cause you to lose the ablility to use the arm effectivly or even at all.




Despair Bear

 

[Rubber Ducky]

But sometimes getting cut is a distinct possibility so it's something that is often addressed in bladed arts. At least IME. In Pekiti Tirsia Kali we're taught that the empty hand (how the heck did that happen!) should be presented to the opponent with the back of the hand leading to present a bone shield and the least damaging cut. Cutting the inside of the arm can get arteries severed, and more importantly lead to the loss of the ability to close your hand - how's the knife going to be held?

I'm sure that other arts have a different view, but the issue does need to be addressed somehow within the framework being studied - if the art deals with weapons as part of its curriculum.

Pierre

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Rubber Ducky
But sometimes getting cut is a distinct possibility so it's something that is often addressed in bladed arts. At least IME. In Pekiti Tirsia Kali we're taught that the empty hand (how the heck did that happen!) should be presented to the opponent with the back of the hand leading to present a bone shield and the least damaging cut. Cutting the inside of the arm can get arteries severed, and more importantly lead to the loss of the ability to close your hand - how's the knife going to be held?

I'm sure that other arts have a different view, but the issue does need to be addressed somehow within the framework being studied - if the art deals with weapons as part of its curriculum.

Pierre

Actually, the system I train in (which has a bit of Pekiti-Tirsia as well as Sayoc Kali) also has us use the 'backside' of the hand/forearm for openhand work against a blade, for example, with the 'live' hand. If the tendons on the top/backside of the hand/arm are cut, that would prevent opening the hand, but would still allow a person to hold on to a weapon.

Of course, I'd prefer not to get into a knife fight in the first place.

Cthulhu

 

[fist of fury]

Ok another question. During your training using whatever types of practice blades you have how often did you get "cut"? was it 30-%40 of the time? how confident do you feel you training will be beneficial in the street?

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by fist of fury
Ok another question. During your training using whatever types of practice blades you have how often did you get "cut"? was it 30-%40 of the time? how confident do you feel you training will be beneficial in the street?

I honestly couldn't say, as I'm still new to FMA training. I'm still trying to get the palisut flow down. The guros I train with always make sure to point out how easy it is to add cuts during the drill, as well as other techniques, but they only show a few so as not to interrupt the flow.

One of them has stated that after knife sparring (training knives, of course) with someone with only about 1 month's worth of FMA training, he still got 'cut' about 50% of the time. This guy is very good with blades, so that was a sobering thought.

And another reason why I don't want to get into a knife fight.

Cthulhu

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Cthulhu


I honestly couldn't say, as I'm still new to FMA training. I'm still trying to get the palisut flow down. The guros I train with always make sure to point out how easy it is to add cuts during the drill, as well as other techniques, but they only show a few so as not to interrupt the flow.

One of them has stated that after knife sparring (training knives, of course) with someone with only about 1 month's worth of FMA training, he still got 'cut' about 50% of the time. This guy is very good with blades, so that was a sobering thought.

And another reason why I don't want to get into a knife fight.

Cthulhu

It doesn't seem like you can avoid getting cut, I've just started my FMA training myself and haven't even gotten to knife defense yet.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by fist of fury

It doesn't seem like you can avoid getting cut, I've just started my FMA training myself and haven't even gotten to knife defense yet.

It does seem that way. Unless you are incredibly gifted, in both skill and attributes, and your opponent is incredibly stupid, a cut seems inevitable. If ever faced with a knife-wielding opponent, I hope to have some sort of stick on hand, like my ASP baton. This way, I can stay way the hell out in largo range, where it's nice and (relatively) safe.

Again, the best prospect is to just not get into a friggin' knife fight. Or any type of fight, for that matter.

Well, water balloon fights are fun...

Cthulhu

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Cthulhu


It does seem that way. Unless you are incredibly gifted, in both skill and attributes, and your opponent is incredibly stupid, a cut seems inevitable. If ever faced with a knife-wielding opponent, I hope to have some sort of stick on hand, like my ASP baton. This way, I can stay way the hell out in largo range, where it's nice and (relatively) safe.

Again, the best prospect is to just not get into a friggin' knife fight. Or any type of fight, for that matter.

Well, water balloon fights are fun...

Cthulhu

The ASP baton is that one of those collapsable ones? If so I was wanting to get one but was curious as to how sturdy they are. It seems to me that thier somewhat hollow and flimsy. How sturdy are they compared to the rattan or solid wood? What kind of metal are they generally made of?

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by fist of fury

The ASP baton is that one of those collapsable ones? If so I was wanting to get one but was curious as to how sturdy they are. It seems to me that thier somewhat hollow and flimsy. How sturdy are they compared to the rattan or solid wood? What kind of metal are they generally made of?

Yep, that's the one.

Mine appears to be made of steel, as it is quite heavy. It is hollow, but it is definitely NOT flimsy!

Since they're collapsable, they end up tapering, but the handle end is thick enough to provide a good grip, and the butt (punyo) end is a steel cap. Abanico strikes may be a bit difficult for some, due to its weight.

If you've seen an ASP that is flimsy, then it either has not been properly maintained, or it's a knockoff. If the baton is has been taken care of, it will lock into place when 'flicked' open and will generally not collapse until it is pounded into a hard surface.

Especially after receiving some FMA training, I feel confident carrying an ASP as a defensive weapon.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
One of them has stated that after knife sparring (training knives, of course) with someone with only about 1 month's worth of FMA training, he still got 'cut' about 50% of the time. This guy is very good with blades, so that was a sobering thought.

I think that that estimate isn't far off. It is sobering. I wouldn't want to fight anyone who had a knife now--when I knew less FMA I was much more confident in my ability to defend myself against the knife.

 

[no fefe]

Sparring with a training knife can certainly be a humbling experience. Sometimes I think I am doing alright and getting decent then we do some knife sparring and end up thinking man do I know anything at all? I think it is good to have a healthy fear of the knife and that you keep yourself based on reality possibly of getting cut.

Dont forget to use your other tools when sparring like low line kicking. Often I do not try to stab in the chest, if my sparring partners hand is there I go for it I always try to take the FMA's Defang the Snake principle to heart when it comes to utilizing a knife.

Robert K.

 

[fist of fury]

Well I think I'll invest in one of those batons. I avoid confrontations as much as possible but if I had no other choice I'd rather have something I could use to defend myself with against a knife wielding opponent.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by fist of fury
Well I think I'll invest in one of those batons.

Cthulhu, can you post a link to the one you have and like? I have a cheap one that I wouldn't carry.

 

[fist of fury]

Yeah a link would be good I want to make sure I get a high quality one

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisador


Cthulhu, can you post a link to the one you have and like? I have a cheap one that I wouldn't carry.

Here's a random supplier. Couldn't find their homepage, but at least you get an idea of price:

http://www.uws.com/ASPBATONS/HomePage.html

Cthulhu

 

[fist of fury]

Thanks

 

[Don Rearic]

After hitting someone with a MagLite on the street and not wanting to break all of my flashlights on people, I purchased an ASP-21 Baton. The number following ASP is usually the length when opened. I've owned the shorter [can't remember the open length of it! 16 sounds right!] and longer, 26-Inch Model. I carried the 21 for work, for approximately 7 years and never had a failure with it.

Looking back, I should have purchased two of them because I eventually had Taper Lock failure on the 21 to the point it would not stay open on a thrust into an Everlast Heavy Bag...I just beat the bag with no mercy back then with it. The shafts will eventually wear out. I never had a problem on the street though and used them on several occasions.

The funny thing about an ASP or any Telescoping Baton is, they are alot like a folding knife that you snap open using inertia, or a Switchblade or Balisong...it's usually dark when bad things happen and it appears you have nothing. All of the sudden with a sliding-snapping sound, you have a 21 inch piece of steel in your hand and I've had more people back-off immediately from that and that alone, then I had to hit. Although some of them did not get the message until they got hit. Such is life...

It's a great weapon for Street-level Self-defense where you can carry them legally. Most people on the street, not all - but most, use very cheap knives and if you hit their wrist with an ASP, you're going to break the bones, you hit the hands or fingers, they're going to break. If you hit most folding knives with one that street criminals would carry, the knife is either going to go flying or it is going to break.

I can tell you about three altercations with them that I was involved in. One, a fellow outside of a bar was hanging with some friends/miscreants...and I had to secure a building across the street and they came over and it all began very badly. Alcohol does not promote rational thought in many people. He ended up having a Budweiser bottle broke in his hand. That's a hint. That was a good shot too. I'm proud of that one.

Another, ASP hit knife hand, knife flew every bit of 15 feet out into the street. Guy turned and ran holding his hand.

Another, I thought I was going to have a problem with a critter and I smacked him low on the outside of the thigh...hit the nerve perfect. Leg buckled, down he went.

All were on the job, legal and justified, no "Barney Badass" stories or Walt Disney Tales.

The ASP, where you can carry it without it being a Felony, is an excellent weapon. It can be a first line before you resort to swimming in bodily fluids. This is a time for smart fighting and like I always tell people who say, "God, you carry a KNIFE!!?!" I simply say, I never want to cut anyone, Hep and AIDS will kill you. I'd do it if I had to, I'd prefer not to be soaked and you will be soaked in alot of cases...it's not a sterile form of Combat. Neither are firearms...

To those of you that carry an ASP Baton, I would give you the following advice...

1. Work the heavybag with it. Alot.

2. Use dumbells, solid steel bars...VERY SLOWLY, without weights being on the small bar, rotate the wrist for Abanico movements, it will strengthen your wrist and forearm because an ASP is steel and it is totally different from the rattan you may be used to. It has different dynamics in almost every way you can imagine.

That would be, holding the arm out with the bar in your hand, palm towards the floor, rotate the palm to the right, palm up, go back and then go left. Do it until you want to croak. You can slowly add weights to that, VERY SMALL AMOUNTS and ADD SLOWLY so you do not damage yourself. Soon, you will see when you use the real deal on the heavy bag, you will fly and hit harder.

3. Hang a tennis ball from a tree outside, etc. Practice Abanico on that. Get it going and focus on using the tip of the ASP and not the length. Get your targeting down.

4. Unless it is a situation where you would be legally justified in using a firearm or an edged weapon for Self-defense, do NOT hit people in the head, neck or clavicles with the ASP. All of which ASP has down as lethal areas. Try to work within those parameters and you can always say, "Even though I'm not a Police Officer, I followed the Manufacturer's advice and did not target areas that carried with them the possibility of death."

If the guy has a knife and you have to hit him in those areas, that, in most cases, would probably be justified. [I'm not a Lawyer, but in general, lethal force can be met with lethal force].

If the guy is already in medium range and you do a double Abanico to the hand and head...I think you would be justified as long as you did not turn his head into a plate of lasagna after he hit the ground.

Because of some people just being very tough, the presence of alcohol and many other things that can Chemically Fuel an attacker, you may have to hit them more than once. In a situation where you are legally justified in hitting them in a lethal area, you might have to hit them more than once to put them down for the count.

Just be careful and realize you need to train with the ASP and not just rattan if you are carrying one.

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
If the guy is already in medium range and you do a double Abanico to the hand and head...I think you would be justified as long as you did not turn his head into a plate of lasagna after he hit the ground.

mmmm I like lasagna
Even if I was confronted with a knife I don't I would strike any of those areas I would perfer to severly disable if I could since criminals can now sue victims and get away with it. But if it came down to my life or the criminals his life would be forefit.