genbukan

[Enson]

i have a very old magazine from the u.k. that has genbukan highlighted. the grandmaster (hatsumi's cousin) says that his school and hatsumi's are the only real ninjutsu schools. so what is this 3rd school and who started that?
also i see the grandmaster now starring in videos for panther productions coming off as samurai. what is he really? ninja or samurai?
hope i didn't offend anyone but just started thinking about that, and thought i would go to the place where all the ninjutsu historians are.

 

[Cryozombie]

i have a very old magazine from the u.k. that has genbukan highlighted. the grandmaster (hatsumi's cousin) says that his school and hatsumi's are the only real ninjutsu schools. so what is this 3rd school and who started that?
also i see the grandmaster now starring in videos for panther productions coming off as samurai. what is he really? ninja or samurai?
hope i didn't offend anyone but just started thinking about that, and thought i would go to the place where all the ninjutsu historians are.

Jinenkan is fairly new... from the mid 90's. It was founded by a guy named Fumio Manaka... formerly of the bujinkan. If you mag is older that could be why it doesn't list the Jinenkan...

Also... Ninja/Samurai... two sides of the same coin... many of the Samurai schools had Ninpo in them. The 'kan schools contain the teachings of both.

 

[FudoshinDojo]

also i see the grandmaster now starring in videos for panther productions coming off as samurai. what is he really? ninja or samurai?>>

There is not a clear distincton such as cowboys and Indians, Ninja and Samurai, many Ninja were samurai as well. Tanemura sensei is a Grandmaster of different samurai jujutsu schools such as Hontai Yoshin Takagi ryu jujutsu, Asayama Ichiden ryu taijutsu, etc, he also is a menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu Ninjutsu. There are two organizations, Genbukan Ninpo Bugei and Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei.

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho

 

[Dale Seago]

Yeah. What technopunk and Brian said.

 

[Enson]

from what i've read the ninja were people that would not live under samurai reign. they were people that chose to live in the mountains to escape the heiarchy of the samurai. so i always thought they couldn't be samurai. maybe i'm just confused. maybe someone can point me to some books so i could read more about this.

 

[George Kohler]

maybe i'm just confused. maybe someone can point me to some books so i could read more about this.

I believe NINJA: THE TRUE STORY OF JAPAN'S SECRET WARRIOR CULT by Stephen Turnbull has some more information about this.

 

[FudoshinDojo]

from what i've read the ninja were people that would not live under samurai reign. they were people that chose to live in the mountains to escape the heiarchy of the samurai. so i always thought they couldn't be samurai. maybe i'm just confused. maybe someone can point me to some books so i could read more about this.



Enson,
I remember this was a popular opinion that was promoted by authors back in the 80's however probably more drama than fact, me personally I don't like to get in to what Ninja are or are not, I train in Ninpo Bugei as a martial artist. To answer your original question as an example many of the Koga families were proud to be samurai but were not inhibited by samurai ethics and felt free to use Ninjutsu when necessary, also a very famous Iga Ninja, Hattori Hanzo was often referred to as a bushi. Of course as far as books go I reccomend my teacher's (Tanemura sensei), Ninpo Secrets book and Ninpo Bugei Fundamental Taijutsu, beyond those, anything written by Hatsumi sensei is factual.

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho

 

[Enson]

"Hattori Hanzo"
isn't that the same guy/character from kill bill? don't be offended if i'm wrong. just thought i heard that name before.

 

[Jay Bell]

*chuckle* Yeah...he was the sword maker in the flick. They got the name from history.

 

[Shogun]

I was viewing one of my SKH Koppojutsu vids, and he mentioned 3 or 4 different schools of Kukishinden, and other Shinobi and Samurai arts. He didnt list specific names, but he was talking about how natural it is for different lineages (in this case, 4) from the same teacher. He mentioned Takamatsu's teacher, and then mentione how several other lineages spawned from him. Does anyone know of any accurate lineages? or are they all ofshoots of the same school (bujinkan).

 

[Dale Seago]

Does anyone know of any accurate lineages? or are they all ofshoots of the same school (bujinkan).

There are several martial lineages associated with the Kuki family or derived/descended from their family arts. From a list of schools and their soke which Jay Bell previously posted elsewhere:

Kukishinden Ryû Happo Bikenjutsu

1. Izumo Kanja Yo****eru
2. Izumo Koshiro Terunobu
3. Izumo Matsushiro Teruhide
4. Izumo Bungo Yo****eru
5. Izumo Kanja Yo****aka
6. Izumo Kanja Yo****eru
7. Ohkuni Kisanata Kiyosumi
8. Tsutsumi Hakushi Mori Ritsuzan
9. Kuriyama Ukongen Nagafusa
10. Arima Kochinosuke Masayoshi
11. Ohkuni Kogenta Yukihisa
12. Kimura Ittosai Kanesuke
13. Arima Daisuke Taddaki
14. Kazama Shinkuro Hidechika
15. Ohkuni Kihei Shigenobu
16. Otone Sakon Yasumasa
17. Otone Genpachi Yoshihide
18. Otone Gengoro Yasuhira
19. Awaji Nyudo Chikayasu
20. Kurama Kotaro Genshin
21. Ohkuni Izumo Mori Shigehiro
22. Sugino Juheita Kanemitsu
23. Hisahara Genjuro Yo****ane
24. Hisahara Kotaro Nobuyoshi
25. I****ani Takeoi Masatsugu
26. I****ani Matsutaro Takekage
27. Takamatsu To****sugu
28. Hatsumi Masaaki


Tenshin Soden Kukamishin Ryû

1. Kukami (Kuki) Yasushimaru Kurando Takazane
2. Kojima Takanori (Betsuyo Saburo)
3. Ohuchi Minbu Yoshikane
4. Ohuchi Goromaru Katsushige
5. Hatakeyama SaburoByoe Masayoshi
6. Ohkuni Kawachi no Kami Yoshiie
7. Ohkuni Kihei Hisayoshi
8. Arima Daisuke Tadaaki
9. Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi
10. Kuriyama Ukon
11. Hosoya Shinpachiro
12. Kimura Ittosai Nyosui
13. Kimura Getsui Yoshishige
14. Ohsumi Shima Masanobu
15. Eba (Iba) Toyotari
16. I****ani Matsutaro Tadaaki
17. Iwami Nangaku Tomoharu
18a. Matsumoto Ihei
18b. Kuki Takaharu
18c. Matsubara Kahei
19. Tanaka Fumon


Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryû Bôjutsu

1. Inaba Kaja Yo****ame
2. Kuki Yasushimaru Kurando
3. Ohuchi Minbu Yoshikane (Minamoto)
4. Ohuchi Goromaru Katsushige
5. Hatakeyama Saburo Masayoshi
6. Ohkuni Kawachi no Mori Yoshiie
7. Ohkuni Kihei Hisayoshi
8. Arima Daisuke Tadaaki
9. Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi
10. Kuriyama Ukon Chobo
11. Hosoya Shinpachiro Yukihisa
12. Kimura Ittosai Nyosui
13. Kimura Getsui Yoshishige
14. Ohsumi Shima Masanobu
15. Eba Toyotaro
16. I****ani Matsutaro Tadaaki
17. Takamatsu To****sugu
18. Kimura Masaji
19. Tanemura Shoto


Hon Tai Kukishin Ryû Bôjutsu

1. Ohkuni Kihei Shigenobu
2. Ohkuni Yakuburo Nobutoshi
3. Ohkuni Tarodayu Tadanobu
4. Ohkuni Kihei Yoshisada
5. Ohkuni Yozaemon Yoshisada
6. Nakayama Jinnai Sasahide
7. Ohkuni Takezaemon Hidenobu
8. Nakayama Kaemon Sadasaka
9. Ohkuni Kamaharu Hidetoshi
10. Yagi Ikugoro Hisayashi
11. I****ani Takeo Masatsugu
12. I****ani Matsutaro Takakage
13. Takamatsu To****sugu
14. Sato Knibei Kiyoaki
15. Tanemura Tsunehisa


Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyoho

1. Kukami (Kuki) Yasushimaru Kurano Takazane
2. Kukami Umanosuke Takayoshi
3. Kukami Soshin Takanori
4. Kukami Yamato No Kami Takamoto
5. Kukami Yamashiro No Kami Yasutaka
6. Kukami Kunaishosuke Sadataka
7. Kukami Kunaidayu Kiyotaka
8. Kukami Yogoro Sumitaka
9. Kukami Ohsumi No Kami Yo****aka
10. Kukami Nagato No Kami Moritaka
11. Kukami Shima No Kami Yo****aka
12. Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takatsune
13. Kuki Nabezaburo Takayuki
14. Kuki Toyozen No Kami Takanao
15. Kuki Kawachi No Kami Takahiro
16. Kuki Shusuinomasa Takahide
17. Kuki Ise No Kami Takayoshi
18. Kuki Shinnosuke Takakyo
19. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasada
20. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takaaki
21. Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takasho
22. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasato
23. Kuki Izumo No Kami Takatsudo
24. Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takato
25. Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takatomo
26. Kuki Takaharu


Kukishin Ryû (Chosui Kukishin Ryû)

1. Kuki Yakushimaru Kurando (Ryushin) Takasane
2. Kuki Umanosuke Takayoshi
3. Kuki Soshin Takanori
4. Kuki Yamato no Kami Takamoto (Takatsugu)
5. Kuki Yamashiro no Kami Yasutaka (Ryuji)
6. Kuki Kunaishosuke Sadataka
7. Kuki Kunaidayu Kiyotaka
8. Kuki Yogoro Sumitaka (Miyauchi Daisuke Joryu)
9. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Yo****aka (Sumitaka)
10. Kuki Nagato no Kami Moritaka
11. Kuki Shima no Kami Yo****aka (Sadataka)
12. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takatsune (Takayoshi)
13. Kuki Nabezaburo Takayuki (Ohsumi no Kami Takatsune)
14. Kuki Toyozen no Kami Takanao (Nagato no Kami Takano)
15. Kuki Kawachi no Kami Takahiro (Ohsumi no Kami Takahiro)
16. Kuki Shusuinomasa Takahide (Takasada)
17. Kuki Ise no Kami Takayoshi
18. Kuki Shinnosuke Takakyo (Takasato)
19. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasada (Izumo no Kami Takanori)
20. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takaaki (Takauni)
21. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takasho (Takamoto)
22. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasato (Yasutaka)
23. Kuki Izumo no Kami Takatsudo
24. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takato
25. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takatomo\
26. Kuki Takaharu
Kuki Tsuneo


Kukishin Ryû Chosui-ha (Kijin Chosui Ryû)

1. Nawa Shinzaburo Motonaga
2. Ohkuni Onigenta Kiyosada
3. Ohkuni Onimita Kiyosumi
4. Nawa Ohachiro Kunimitsu
5. Nawa Jiro Mitsuosa
6. Uchigawa Kenzaburo Kiyonaga
7. Unno Kosaburo Yoshihide
8. Makabe Gennosuke Kiyotaka
9. Arakawa Migoro Machika
10. Kamib Kotaro Yukishige
11. Urabe Sukune Kanesada
12. Izumo Kansha Yoshihide
13. Otomo Kosaburo Takayuki
14. Otomo Sanshiro Takayoshi
15. Fujiwara Izumo-no-kami Yorinaga
16. Ise Danjo Yorimitsu
17. Samasuke Yoriyoshi
18. Atsuta Daiguji Masayoshi
19. Atsuta Daiguji Toshihiro
20. Takamatsu Saemon Masatoshi
21. Ouchi Kawachi-no-kami Toshihiro
22. Ohkuni Izumo-no-kami Takeyoshi
23. Inaba Kansha Masahide
24. Tomonai Taro Sumitaka
25. Takamatsu Daizaburo Tokitsugu
26. Araki Tamonnosuke Masasumi
27. Araki Muninsai (Araki Ryu)
28. Araki Tetsuhei Masataka
29. Ohkuni Onihira Shigenobu
30. Ohkuni Yakuro Nobutoshi
31. Ohkuni Taro Kottai Tadanobu
32. Ohkuni Onibeie Yoshisada
33. Nakayama Jinnai Sadahide
34. Ohkuni Izumo-no-kami Hidesada
35. Ohkuni Kenji Hidetoshi
36. Ohkuni Shigeharu Hidemasa
37. I****ani Matsutaro Takahiro
38. Takamatsu To****sugu
39. Ueno Takashi
40. Ueno Yoshiaki
Kaminaga Nariyoshi Kobayashi Masao

 

[Shogun]

are these lineages (besides Hatsumi's) around today?

Regards,
kyle

 

[Dale Seago]

are these lineages (besides Hatsumi's) around today?

Regards,
kyle

Yes indeedy.

 

[Cruentus]

Yes indeedy.

Sorry Dale...now I am highly confused again.

I thought that all roads led to Bujinkan/Hatsumi in one way or the other. Other Kan's and indies that are legit somehow trace themselves to Hatsumi, I thought.

So...are there other families that can claim ninjitsu that are not connected with Buj? If so, out of that list, how many are left?

Thanks,

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

Sorry again for the confusion...

I am sure to you guys who do the art, this issue has been kicked to death. But to me, someone who does not study ninjitsu but likes to learn the history and learn about all martial arts, it can be very confusing.

I guess I should start with some basic japanese terms as well.

Whats a Kan?

Whats a Ryu?

How does a "Family" relate to the Kan's and Ryu's (and what's that called)?

If all roads don't lead to Hatsumi, then how do you legitimize or "prove" that a school came from another lineage outside of Hatsumi?

I had it all set in my head in a very simple fashion from other conversations...basically, if it traces to Hatsumi and they can prove it, whether Bujinkan or not, there is some legitimacy to it. If not, then it is not legitimate. Is my simplistic method of understanding incorrect? I'll be happy if the answer is that I am incorrect, as I am just trying to gain understanding.

Thanks again,

Jubei

 

[Dale Seago]

Eek.

Yes, it can all seem a bit complicated, but it isn't necessarily. There were several Kuki-related branches in existence before Takamatsu sensei's time, and none of them are "ninjutsu" per se. . .though some contain elements of what people today would think of as ninjutsu such as strategies/methods for fortress penetration, disguise, etc. As has been mentioned before, a lot of samurai ryuha contained some aspects of ninjutsu; it just wasn't "what they were all about".

The only three purely-ninja systems in The Booj are Togakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, and Kumogakure ryu. . .which is not to say, however, that they are the only ones that historically were connected with ninja. According to our tradition, two others -- Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu -- were originally Chinese temple fighting systems which were brought into Japan and went through generations of adaptation to local conditions before being picked up by Momochi Sandayu, a historically famous ninja leader, in the 1540s and becoming "ninja fighting systems".

Other than the three purely ninja-associated systems I mentioned, I'm not aware of any schools calling themselves ninjutsu/ninjitsu which have been able to prove a connection with any actual old martial ryu in Japan, ninja or otherwise.

I guess I should start with some basic japanese terms as well.

Whats a Kan?

Whats a Ryu?

How does a "Family" relate to the Kan's and Ryu's (and what's that called)?

I'll let Don address that one, as he can give both a better linguistic overview and also perhaps some of the historical, social, military, and political implications.

You might find this biographical sketch and timeline of Takamatsu sensei's life interesting: http://www.ninpo.be/Takamatsu%20(eng).htm

 

[Shogun]

Dale and Don.........you guys are the Man/Men!!!!

 

[George Kohler]

Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryû Bôjutsu

1. Inaba Kaja Yoshi-tame
2. Kuki Yasushimaru Kurando
3. Ohuchi Minbu Yoshikane (Minamoto)
4. Ohuchi Goromaru Katsushige
5. Hatakeyama Saburo Masayoshi
6. Ohkuni Kawachi no Mori Yoshiie
7. Ohkuni Kihei Hisayoshi
8. Arima Daisuke Tadaaki
9. Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi
10. Kuriyama Ukon Chobo
11. Hosoya Shinpachiro Yukihisa
12. Kimura Ittosai Nyosui
13. Kimura Getsui Yoshishige
14. Ohsumi Shima Masanobu
15. Eba Toyotaro
16. Ishi-tani Matsutaro Tadaaki
17. Takamatsu Toshi-tsugu
18. Kimura Masaji
19. Tanemura Shoto

Hi Dale,

I know you are quoting someone else, but this lineage is not quite correct. The first person, Inaba is not the founder and should not be added. Tanemura sensei is the 18th generation.

Also, some of the spellings of the names are not correct. So anyone wishing to use these names for their references should reconsider.

 

[heretic888]

The only three purely-ninja systems in The Booj are Togakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, and Kumogakure ryu. . .which is not to say, however, that they are the only ones that historically were connected with ninja. According to our tradition, two others -- Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu -- were originally Chinese temple fighting systems which were brought into Japan and went through generations of adaptation to local conditions before being picked up by Momochi Sandayu, a historically famous ninja leader, in the 1540s and becoming "ninja fighting systems".

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Dale, but don't both of those schools (Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu) supposedly descend from Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu??

If not, my mistake. :asian:

 

[Dale Seago]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Dale, but don't both of those schools (Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu) supposedly descend from Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu??

If not, my mistake. :asian:

With Gyokko ryu there is possibly a connection: Its first official Soke was Tozawa Hakuunsai, which could argue for a potential connection with Hakuun ryu but doesn't establish anything conclusive.

I'm not aware of any Hakuun/Koto connection. . .but then again, history's not really my thing.