Fresh Air.

[Kreth]

You might want to check your dates, snowjob. My reply to Enson was prior to Kaith subdividing the forum. As for adding to the discussion, I feel I am doing so by providing a counter to your misinformation. You may notice that I'm not giving Genin Andrew, et al; a hard time, as they're not attempting to rewrite history. I don't have a problem with neo-ninja, just those who try to change historical fact to give themselves a lineage that does not, in fact, exist. Your "historical summaries" are a joke, and I, and others will continue to point out the gaping holes in them as long as you post them.
Oh, and btw, the big word you were fishing for is narcissistic. Perhaps if you quit trying to play the lecturer and actually read some of these titles you keep posting, you wouldn't feel that I'm picking on you.

Jeff

 

[Enson]

. You're dismissed.

i have to admit that was funny! lol! :lol:
that was a little hurtful what kreth said but i'm okay! hee hee! the funny thing with that thread was i was trying to be a nice guy and i got jumped. anyway... in the past.
sojobow, kreth, andrew, enson... oh wait thats me. lets play nice!

peace

 

[Genin Andrew]

"sojobow, kreth, andrew, enson... oh wait thats me. lets play nice!"

Enson we always play fair, this isnt a battle and it isnt personal its just EDUCATION,we are all learning in a comfortable environment.

However this topic is proving difficult for some to handle, some people learn in different ways and at different rates to others,so we must be patient and understand module 1. THE NINJA,NINPO,NINJUTSU were/are Japanese. then when the majority of the class catches on we can discuss further issues that relate to the practices of the Ninja.

However one student sitting up the back seems to be taking control of the class and trying to tell us factual history from his own theories,this is incorrect and disruptive to the rest of the class,it disturbs proper learning...and i am one of those dudes that sit up the front and absorb as much as possible from my classes, I dont enjoy hearing good quality information get molested and tangled with drunken ramblings.

much respect
-andrew

 

[Genin Andrew]

To anyone who takes offence to any of that, i apologize. It sounds a little harsh but was intended to be taken lightly.

 

[sojobow]

You might want to check your dates, snowjob. My reply to Enson was prior to Kaith subdividing the forum. As for adding to the discussion, I feel I am doing so by providing a counter to your misinformation. You may notice that I'm not giving Genin Andrew, et al; a hard time, as they're not attempting to rewrite history. I don't have a problem with neo-ninja, just those who try to change historical fact to give themselves a lineage that does not, in fact, exist. Your "historical summaries" are a joke, and I, and others will continue to point out the gaping holes in them as long as you post them.
Oh, and btw, the big word you were fishing for is narcissistic. Perhaps if you quit trying to play the lecturer and actually read some of these titles you keep posting, you wouldn't feel that I'm picking on you.

Jeff

snowjob????? Moving right along Kreth.

Regardless of dates - and recoup as you wish - you told Enson that he was not welcomed to post in the original section or subsection because his Ryu had no ties in Lineage to Japan and no one should post in your little word of traditionalism if their Ryu isn't listed in the book. Japan notwithstanding, this attitude is downright unAmerican. Who appointed you Lord of the Japanese Ninjutsu Ring anyway? And, FYI, Tew Ryu does, in fact, have lineage to Japan. Because you don't know of it, does not mean it does not exist. Here (in this sub section) we don't care and will not pursue the matter.

Wasn't fishing for any word. I wrote what I intended to write.

In all seriousness because I do feel you and I (even Andrew too) can participate in a good civil dialogue, please feel free to point out the gaping holes in my "historical summaries." This "pointing out" is what I am really looking forward too. I want to know why "things just don't fit." But I do wish that you and others would drop the personal attacks and just say, as an example, no sojobow, Ninjutsu in Japan began in the year xxxx because of xxxxxxxx. A man/woman named xxxxxxxx started it by xxxxxxxxxx.

Believe me, all I want is to get close to something that makes sense regardless of the Lineage. There were other Ninjutsu families in areas other than Iga and Koga. How are we all related? Who were/are they? Since the Landlords hated Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu and used their Samurai to wage war on Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu (just disregard any word you don't like), how were these Ninja able to defend themselves against the samurai sword? Would the survival of the Ninja prove that their Sword Techniques were equal to that of the Samurai? Would a Ninja be caught grappling? Would a Ninja really be involved with a dojo open to the public? Would a real Ninja ever admit that he was a Ninja? What would a Ninja think of BJJ? What were the battle tactics used by the Landlords and how did the Iga Ninja defend in their particular war? When the Emperor brought peace and nationality to Japan and, as some say, hired Ninja as his Secret Service, government-sponsored CIA, killers etc, when, and whom did he hire, and when and whom did he fire? Has there ever been a group waged war against simply because of what they knew other than Ninja? Does Sun Tzu really have anything to do with Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu? And how-the-heck did the Huns end up with the Bow of the Ninja as their primary weapon since Japan was a closed/secret society at the time?

Ok to even say, sojobow, you're an idiot. xxxxxxxx never happened as you say but what really happened was xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Words of insult never really effect me so the portion of these statements that I value would begin with what you say after the usual Traditionalistic Insults. But, at least, ADD SOMETHING (hopefully, other than the usual useless pomp). The insults are noted if if makes you feel better Soke. You're much better than what you present as intellect in your past 30 post.

 

[sojobow]

"sojobow, kreth, andrew, enson... oh wait thats me. lets play nice!"

Enson we always play fair, this isnt a battle and it isnt personal its just EDUCATION,we are all learning in a comfortable environment.

However one student sitting up the back seems to be taking control of the class and trying to tell us factual history from his own theories,this is incorrect and disruptive to the rest of the class,it disturbs proper learning...and i am one of those dudes that sit up the front and absorb as much as possible from my classes, I dont enjoy hearing good quality information get molested and tangled with drunken ramblings.

much respect
-andrew

Were all listening, tell us your take. Class has your complete attention and won't interupt. We're listening.

Need help? Well, you do use swordforum as a reference in your signature area. Tell us why you would study the Sword (if you do) when you can't use one on the streets (at least here in the US)? Now, before you get upset, I think we all should study the sword. But tell us why you study the blade. Or, please feel free to use this thread to enlighten us on your take of Ninjutsu's history. We will not interupt or pick what you post apart. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Genin Andrew]

My take on the history of ninjustu? I dont mind writing excessively long posts,but this would be very very long and teadious for most browsers since i have shed little snippets of my beliefs throughout the forum i dont see any point in exposing my whole beliefs of the subject since i would only be repeating what many books say. So i will be brief and say more of my own theories rather than repeat factual history.

OK, One who doesn't approach the history of Ninpo without an open mind is a plain fool, and will understand very little. However have a too open mind and you will fall victim to Ashida Kim stories and the adventures of Russian Ninja. And you're knowledge of the topic will be badly scratched.As a side note,this is why it is better to learn from books rather than the internet,sure there are some great sites with great facts and theories but there is also a great deal of crap out there. Be mindful...

The problem with understanding ninjutsu and its beginnings is the simple fact that very few people know very littleand Historians have had very little to work with. The Bansenshukai, Ninpiden and the Shoninki are the most well known Historical scrolls referring to the Ninja and their ways known today. A fact that is often forgotten is that the Ninja werent a ruling empire,they had no social control,they were a secret sect of families who were just like the common Japanese farmer. What made them different was their knowledge and well developed fighting techniques which weren't made public like a samurai would parading the streets with his katana and wakizashi. The ninja were known by other ninja and a few who has called on them for assistance. They left with them very little traces let alone documents.

The second main problem is Japan's history in general. Being the contradictive nation it was. The Meiji restoration from 17th century to the 19th locked Japan in a series of rigid structures, strict placement of social classes and so forth. Ninja were never an officially recognized social group, Ninjutsu being virtually unknown, in my belief went into hiding and became much more 'low key' in this time, I also believe that many Ninpo practitioners fled to China to escape the grasp of the Ruling Samurai and the strict social changes. Note i said 'some' not all ( an open-minded possibility ).

The founding of ninjutsu (very very brief).
There was no founder, no first Ninja. Ninjutsu was a progressive development developed by poor/middle class families and some outcasts who lived in the outskirts,less explored areas of Japan. Historically noted are the mountainous regions such as Iga and Koga as a historical example. However i believe there were other regions which escaped documentation. I refer to Ninjutsu as the art and 'way' of the ninja ecompassing all aspects, even ninpo. I believe Ninpo to be the more philisophical and spiritual side to 'way'. Ninpo covers everyday values and attitudes,morals,etiquettes, ways of thinking, spiritual philosophies,appreciation of nature. These are all aspects of Ninpo, that boils Ninpo down to being a "mindset" in its most simplest form,however we know it is much more than that...

To me Ninpo/Ninjutsu began its first stages of development in the mid to late 15th century. Ninpo was started by these lone family groups, and i think the natural environment around them inspired its development greatly. These families were made up of the Japanese farmers and oppressed social groups and also the Chinese, who fled their warring homeland. It has been stated that there was a great Chinese influence in Ninpo/Ninjutsu, this i agree with. The Chinese contribution to the development of espionage in Japan had been rather substantial. The wandering Yamabushi and Shugenda who also made the infamous mountain regions their quiet home had a big influence on these families, I believe there was significant association with the groups,they learnt from eachother and adopted many different 'ways'. This is what made the Ninjutsu fighting arts so effective and well rounded not to mention "mysteriously unconventional".

These families (often seperated into "clans" clans of Iga and Koga for example) suffered great oppression and needed means to defend themselves and their homes, also needed was effective means of counter-attack (and methods of infiltration ). Ninjutsu didnt just begin developing so to speak, the practitioners of ninjutsu simply began refining it. Adapting and building on many different techniques and methods. The Ninja steered from the guidelines and structures of more common techniques and based their fighting styles on spontaneity and learnt to effectively use whatever they could in a variety of situations. Hence the fact that the Bo became a favoured weapon of the Ninja because of its simplistic structure and endless uses.

However i personally believe that despite the Chinese influence that Ninjutsu as a fighting art and Ninpo as a 'way' were born in Japan,not entirely by Japanese but predominantly and Japan was were the Ninja operated and flourished (silently of course). This is however my very brief and general belief of the founding and early history of Ninjutsu. The fact that their is no recorded founder only a few "last ninja" makes it almost impossible to completely understand. These last few such as Fujita Seiko (who left no predecessor) and Toshitsugu Takamatsu (passed the Togakure-Ryu tradition of the Iga no Bushi to Masaaki Hatsumi) is all we have to learn from, apart from history books and old scrolls and documents of course.

However these are the only two known simply because they are the only two who "went public". I personally believe that there were others who passed away peacefully and quietly in Japan or even China with no intention of leaving their secrets behind.There may even be a few today who have ancient knowledge but keep it to themselves with a similiar lack of intention of exposing it. I think it would be foolish to rule out this possibility, but some may call me a fool.

I have briefly touched on a few of my many beliefs and i have given detail,but i will happily elaborate if someone wants to select a particular part/quote they are interested in. I have failed to list all the facts and theories which i harbour,like i said though,we would be here forever!!! Hope this is of some interest...

much respect
-andrew

 

[Kreth]

In all seriousness because I do feel you and I (even Andrew too) can participate in a good civil dialogue, please feel free to point out the gaping holes in my "historical summaries." This "pointing out" is what I am really looking forward too.

and

And how-the-heck did the Huns end up with the Bow of the Ninja as their primary weapon since Japan was a closed/secret society at the time?

Here's a quick example, as I'm at work and don't have any references available (note: I don't consider a website a reliable reference unless it can be cross-checked). The Hun bow was an assymetric, composite bow designed for use from horseback. Are you saying this legendary "Bow of the Ninja" was a horseman's bow? What source do you have for this bow? One of Tom Brown's survival students can probably teach you to make a snap bow that vaguely resembles the Hun bow. That does not make them the same.

But, at least, ADD SOMETHING (hopefully, other than the usual useless pomp).

You see, myself, Don, and others are adding to the discussion by correcting the musings you post as fact.

Jeff

 

[Enson]

You see, myself, Don, and others are adding to the discussion by correcting the musings you post as fact.

Jeff

speaking of which... what happened to don? he hasn't been active on the forum in some time. it looks like when micheal pearce joined and scolded them for insulting everyone he left. well that might not have been the reason but thats what it seems like. i just thought he would be all over this thread with sojobow in a choke hold already.
andrew... although you and others do play nice... some don't. i just used our names to not point anyone out specifically. a tip of leadership: "don't single out anyone as if in an attack." i'm in a leadership group and that is all i have been reading. anyway maybe that should be another style (leadership style).:ultracool
peace

 

[Genin Andrew]

Having Sojobow in a stranglehold? lol well i dont think Don can be bothered anymore. He has had many disputes with Sojobow in the past i think its got to the point where he realised he was fighting an endless battle. One can only continuously correct someone for so long, it can be exhausting and i'm sure Don is just waiting for this to all blow over... Hes made it clear he doesnt agree with Sojobow, whats the point of continuing?

The only reason I do is to try and help Sojobow understand why we believe what we do and why we would get a little frustrated with his beliefs...Its becoming easier because i can understand what hes saying now,but i agree to a very minimal extent.

much respect
-andrew

 

[Genin Andrew]

Just so i make sure i answer all your questions Sojobow, you asked why i study the sword? well...

First of all, understanding and learning to use the Japanese sword is an aspect of my art (Ninjukai) both the Shinogi Zukuri standard Katana and the Ninja-To straight blade, both are practiced. The wakizashi is also practiced although not as much as we apply the same techniques of the katana to the wakizashi (explains itself ).

Second, I am a traditionalist and understand the value in learning traditional weapons, not just for the fun and Historical side of it but because the traditional weapons such as the katana have techniques that can be applied to many random everyday objects, obviously not always "slice and dice" methods obviously.

Third, the Katana is an object of beauty,as anyone would know having seen a well made katana or even better seen it in use (properly). When i first got my katana (and still do) i just stare at it lol, when unsheathed and glistening in sunlight it is a sight that is very admirable and inspiring.The Japanese sword without doubt is a beautiful creation,that is why i am honored to learn and understand it.

And as you cleverly said Sojobow, I do not carry my blades around in the street, this is stupid let alone illegal. Although it would be humorous to see the looks i would get . I have a link to www.swordforum.com as part of my signature because it is a great website, well constructed, great information and just a great site,hope this is ok with you and i hope i have answered your question.

much respect
-andrew

 

[Kreth]

and the Ninja-To straight blade

You do know this sword is pretty much an invention of Hollywood, right? I like swordwork myself, but for practicality, I prefer stick fighting. Much easier to find a pool cue or broom handle when necessary than it is to find an old sword laying around... :samurai:

Jeff

 

[sojobow]

See, I knew you could do it. And, I also knew the base of your history thoughts. Your school is noted and I have no gripe with either. I just like others to point me in directions I may have missed. Assist in correcting thee dots. couple of questions raised.

To me Ninpo/Ninjutsu began its first stages of development in the mid to late 15th century. Ninpo was started by these lone family groups, and i think the natural environment around them inspired its development greatly. These families were made up of the Japanese farmers and oppressed social groups and also the Chinese, who fled their warring homeland.

It has been stated that there was a great Chinese influence in Ninpo/Ninjutsu, this i agree with. The Chinese contribution to the development of espionage in Japan had been rather substantial. The wandering Yamabushi and Shugenda who also made the infamous mountain regions their quiet home had a big influence on these families, I believe there was significant association with the groups,they learnt from eachother and adopted many different 'ways'. This is what made the Ninjutsu fighting arts so effective and well rounded not to mention "mysteriously unconventional".

From what I've read (and believe) is that the Yamabushi and Shugenda philosophy(s) were evident in Japan as early as 7th or 8th Centuries which would indicate a much earlier beginning of the Ninja by 7 to 800 years. Thus, I would have a much different perspective. Not saying you are wrong, but just saying that we would have a difference in this history by a minimum of 800 years.

These last few such as Fujita Seiko (who left no predecessor) and Toshitsugu Takamatsu (passed the Togakure-Ryu tradition of the Iga no Bushi to Masaaki Hatsumi) is all we have to learn from, apart from history books and old scrolls and documents of course.

Fujita Seiko is someone of interest. I have been looking into information available regarding this individual. Not him personally, but what he represented. So far of interest is that his Ryu is considered a proxy for all other Koga Ryu when, his Ryu is completely separate and independant of Koga Yamabushi Ryu and quite a number of others. Why the conclusion is stated that since he did not pass on his ryu all other Ryu of Koga could not have been passed on is interesting.

Also, it seems that Fujita was a "black op." This would indicate that the war art had remained alive and flouishing in Japan. Of interest if true.

Also of interest to me in reaching my "chinese connection" is the fact (I hope) that the Gyokko Ryu - Jewel Tiger School, Koto Ryu - Tiger knocking Down School and the Shinden Fudo Ryu - Immovable Heart School are Chinese Ryu seemingly developed centuries BEFORE Togakure-Ryu. Though not "Ninjutsu Ryu," this would indicate a Chinese influence long before the 15th Centurg. Inferences on my part and I'm sure Kreth will correct me on this point.

However these are the only two known simply because they are the only two who "went public". I personally believe that there were others who passed away peacefully and quietly in Japan or even China with no intention of leaving their secrets behind.There may even be a few today who have ancient knowledge but keep it to themselves with a similiar lack of intention of exposing it. I think it would be foolish to rule out this possibility, but some may call me a fool.

You're not a fool (IMHO) as I've said the same thing. But these Soke and their schools are not recognized by many traditionalist as quite a few traditionalist can't understand why not. If these Soke did not "went public," the view is that they never existed in the first place.

Hope this is of some interest...much respect-andrew

Very

 

[sojobow]

Here's a quick example, as I'm at work and don't have any references available (note: I don't consider a website a reliable reference unless it can be cross-checked).

If I had said this, everything afterwards would be considered a lie by a few here. Why is it ok why you do it but I get 4 post calling me an idiot when I do it? No reply necessary but I just thought you'd see the problems I have.

The Hun bow was an assymetric, composite bow designed for use from horseback. Are you saying this legendary "Bow of the Ninja" was a horseman's bow? What source do you have for this bow? One of Tom Brown's survival students can probably teach you to make a snap bow that vaguely resembles the Hun bow. That does not make them the same.

You see, myself, Don, and others are adding to the discussion by correcting the musings you post as fact. Jeff

In fairness, you didn't correct my musings as facts but actually "added" to my musings. Here's why:

You are correct in your reference to the Hun Bow useage on Horseback. As the Huns originated in the area now identified as being eastern Russia/Northern China/Mongolia, in order for the Huns to reach eastern Europe, they traveled on horseback. The Hun Bow may have also been used as their primary weapon because of its contruction, it's developed armor-penatrating power with much less drawing effort whether on horseback or not - another trait of the Ninja's Bow (Hun's did endeavor to invade Japan twice). If we look at the Samurai Bow, you'll see that their bow was much longer and also used on horseback as long as the enemy did not use guns.

 

[Cryozombie]

If I had said this, everything afterwards would be considered a lie by a few here. Why is it ok why you do it but I get 4 post calling me an idiot when I do it? No reply necessary but I just thought you'd see the problems I have.

I will answer...

When People like Kreth, Enson, Andrew, Don, Ralph... etc... say things...

They dont go "In fact Ninjas flew into war with Jet fighters" or "The Alaskin Eskimo Spear is actually a Yari, so Eskimos are therefore Ninja" or "The Predator has a shuriken, so the Predator are ninjas" and typically DO back up their posts with verifible fact when asked, instead of changing the subject or adding more conjecture... theirfore, when they say, "I dont have it in front of me right now" we give them the benefit of the doubt that they arent making random crap up to try and support some silly notion that they came up with.

 

[sojobow]

- another trait of the Ninja's Bow (Hun's did endeavor to invade Japan twice).

Thanks for not biting my head off on this one guys. It was the Khans and not the Huns that endeavored to invade Japan twice.

 

[sojobow]

I will answer...

When People like Kreth, Enson, Andrew, Don, Ralph... etc... say things...

They dont go "In fact Ninjas flew into war with Jet fighters" or "The Alaskin Eskimo Spear is actually a Yari, so Eskimos are therefore Ninja" or "The Predator has a shuriken, so the Predator are ninjas" and typically DO back up their posts with verifible fact when asked, instead of changing the subject or adding more conjecture... theirfore, when they say, "I dont have it in front of me right now" we give them the benefit of the doubt that they arent making random crap up to try and support some silly notion that they came up with.

Point taken. Do you practice budo taijutsu?

 

[Genin Andrew]

Kreth, lol I am aware that the ninja-to is a "creation of hollywood" how can i not be!...but...

Hollywood didnt create the sword they just gave it strong association with the ninja. It was a way to show contrast between samurai and ninja,ninja straight blades and samurai adopted curved blades. It was used to highlight the difference, like in modern computer games, two opposing forces red team and blue team for example. However there is some historical fact.

Straight bladed swords were definately used in Japan. That is fact. Straight bladed swords are known as choku-to styles. But many refer to them as "ninja sword" which is incorrect. Another interesting little moderation is the 'square tsuba' which is commonly associated with "ninja swords". Again square tsubas did obviously exist but whether they were a trademark of the ninja is beyond me and i am not one to say. It is interesting though that in the Iga-Ninja museum http://www.iganinja.jp/english/menu.html they have a straight bladed square tsuba sword supposedly used by ninja, but it is more accurately known to have been more a tool than a combat weapon, but then so were the Sai and Kama. So theres alot of evidence for the ninja straight blade and against. Ninjutsu schools today still use the ninja-to even SKH has publisized it in his books, so personally i dont like to state that the ninja-to is strictly a fantasy creation, i am still undecided with what i believe on the matter.

Theres a good/common article on the topic not sure whether you have already read it... http://swordforum.com/sfu/primer/ninjasword.html

Just lastly one of the most intetesting images i've seen is that on the Fujita Seiko site there is a picture of Fujita (from his book Donronron: Saiga no Ninja) in shinobi shozoku dark garb,hooded with a katana...and the katana has a square tsuba!...its hard to tell from that pic but its obvious when enlarged.I found that interesting http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/page1.html

much respect
-andrew

 

[Don Roley]

speaking of which... what happened to don? he hasn't been active on the forum in some time.

I traveled overseas for training in a non-Japanese art. It was quite fun and informative.

Now that I am back and looking over these threads, I see that no one of any importance is taking Sojobow seriously. He seems to be considered a rather large joke now and there is little need to counter his points to stop the spread of bad information. Kreth pointed out just one thing of how he claims the Mongols used a ninja like bow, but the Japanese verison is quite different. Sojobow's response was rather amusing, but did not really deal with the point. Big surprise. With that type of thing going on, no one with any brains is going to take the historical revisions of Sojobow with any seriousness.

 

[Kizaru]

Dear Mr. Don Roley,

One of these kids is not like the other,
One of these kids is doing his own thing....

Amazing what one can learn on "Sesame Street".