Folding utility knife (boxcutter)

[arnisandyz]

Has anybody played with this yet? Being a new homeowner, I use my utility knife regularly for things around the house. A utility knife can do some things better than a regular knife can like cutting weather stripping, trimming paper, fine cutting, etc. Cool part is that you can always have a razor sharp blade (it is a razor after all) - if it gets dull, flip it around or put a new blade in. I think its only like $25.

andy

 

[arnisandyz]

they call it a "superknife"

 

[Phil Elmore]

It's a handy little tool. The pocket clip could be a little more substantial and the handle is a little too smooth for its size, but it's a nice little item.

There are other knives in this category, too. Meyerco makes one that is essentially a razor blade holder fitted into the handle that their "Speedster" knife uses, and the whole thing is spring-assisted.

Stanley, makers of standard tools you can find in any hardware store, also makes two different Sport Utility Knives that are retractable razor-blade utility knives on one end with one-hand-opening folding knife blades on the other end. The knives are of relatively cheap steel and the housings are very large, making the overall tool very chunky, but if you carry it in a toolbelt this is not an issue and it's handy to have both types of knives in one unit.

 

[arnisandyz]

That Myerco knife looks good and its the same price (maybe less) than the superknife!

 

[7starmantis]

OK, I have to ask....

The attackers durin the 9/11 attacks were brandishing "boxcutters" I would imagine similar to the ones mentioned above. How much damage could you inflict with one of those before someone takes you down. Its not like you could even really hit any main arteries or anything with the small blade. What would make a whole plane full of people sit in thier seats and not try to take them down if all they had were those knives?
I know the one plane did "revolt" but I just dont see anyone doing any amount of damage to me with one of those before I've broken a knee or two, am I being optomistic? I don't think so.

Your thoughts?

7sm

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
OK, I have to ask....

The attackers durin the 9/11 attacks were brandishing "boxcutters" I would imagine similar to the ones mentioned above. How much damage could you inflict with one of those before someone takes you down. Its not like you could even really hit any main arteries or anything with the small blade. What would make a whole plane full of people sit in thier seats and not try to take them down if all they had were those knives?
I know the one plane did "revolt" but I just dont see anyone doing any amount of damage to me with one of those before I've broken a knee or two, am I being optomistic? I don't think so.

Your thoughts?

7sm

I wish we could train for five minutes. Just a simple little aluminum trainer and you from a seated position getting up and into the isle way. You might be able to get a kick off, and this would be nice. Yet, if you are in the back, The Bad guy
could just reach out and cut the throat of the old lady sitting next to the isle. Before you get there. Then tel everyone that you were teh cause, because you stood up. I would then procede as needed. How many of those people would you like to see die? Fear is of what might have happened to them is what kept them in their seats. Combined with teh staff telling them to co-operate as was theri training. Previous to this all hostage taking on airplanes was for political statments, not using them as guided missiles. After, you get to me, we could see where you were cut after the exchange. And yes, I might have more training in the knife, yet you have more training in martial arts then the average passenger.

No disrespect to you or those on the plane.
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
OK, I have to ask....

The attackers durin the 9/11 attacks were brandishing "boxcutters" I would imagine similar to the ones mentioned above. How much damage could you inflict with one of those before someone takes you down. Its not like you could even really hit any main arteries or anything with the small blade. What would make a whole plane full of people sit in thier seats and not try to take them down if all they had were those knives?
I know the one plane did "revolt" but I just dont see anyone doing any amount of damage to me with one of those before I've broken a knee or two, am I being optomistic? I don't think so.

Your thoughts?

7sm

With all do respect, a semi-trained knife player would kill you with one of those without a whole lot of problems.

The tool is razor sharp, and can severe most major arteries, despite what you might think. You don't need a large blade to do this. Your inside arms, neck, and inside leg arteries could all cut to pieces with ease.

Not to mention, all the preliminary cuts, and what those would do to you.

Imagine this for a moment:

a wildly slashing attacker with a box cutter... you close the gap like the good martial artists you are, and your right followed by your left moves in for the trap, as you move to deliver a powerful blow with your foot to his knee, hoping to be able to follow up with a successful disarm and barrage of strikes to the head. As you trap, your right hand becomes warm and mushy and wet for some reason. Your left hand stings like you've never felt before, as you expected to catch his wrist with your left, yet you can't even close your hand at all. Your kick thumps against something, but your focus was thrown completely off, as you glance at your arms to see blood pumping with every throb of your fast beating heart out of an artery from a gash in the inside of your left elbow; the other gash along your left forearm looks like a piece of rare beef hanging off bone. Your right palm is only cut prematurely on the palm, but that seems to sting now more then the left. But you've already stumbled with your footwork unconsciously, so you have to readjust to try to grab or punch him with your only working limb...your right hand. However, during the milisecond it takes for you to process this, you can almost hear the Pop of your right eye, as now you can no longer see out of it. You make a last ditch effort to flail a strike with your right hand as your head flinches back, and as your scream is immediately muffled by a girgling sound. Your out of breath, but when you try to inhale, all you can breath in is warm liquid. You think your on the ground by the back of your head hitting a surface of somekind, but all you can see is blackness, as you no longer know which way is up, with your last memory being your right hand measures the size of the gash in your throat, and the question of "what just happend in the last 3 seconds?" burning in your mind.

I wouldn't underestimate the power of even a small blade if I were you. You can be overtaken by a blade wielding attacker in a matter of seconds. If you make one mistake in gaining control of him you will be cut, repeatidly. He can afford to make a lot of mistakes, however, including being hit many times by your strikes, before it becomes a danger to him.

Just something to think about. I wouldn't underestimate the damage a little knife can do...

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I wish we could train for five minutes. Just a simple little aluminum trainer and you from a seated position getting up and into the isle way. You might be able to get a kick off, and this would be nice. Yet, if you are in the back, The Bad guy
could just reach out and cut the throat of the old lady sitting next to the isle. Before you get there. Then tel everyone that you were teh cause, because you stood up. I would then procede as needed. How many of those people would you like to see die? Fear is of what might have happened to them is what kept them in their seats. Combined with teh staff telling them to co-operate as was theri training. Previous to this all hostage taking on airplanes was for political statments, not using them as guided missiles. After, you get to me, we could see where you were cut after the exchange. And yes, I might have more training in the knife, yet you have more training in martial arts then the average passenger.

No disrespect to you or those on the plane.
:asian:

These are good points as well. How many women and children could one see die from getting up and trying to fight them off? I would fight...but I would want to know the motives of the hijackers first, so I wouldn't cause people to die when we could all land somewhere safely. This of course depends on the situation. Yet, I am sure for a good part of the trip, they figured that they were taking a trip to Afganastan rather then being used as missles.

Regardless, I would have to be convinced that we were going to die anyways before I tried something. I don't mind dieing from defending myself, but I have a problem with getting others killed if it can be prevented.

PAUL

 

[arnisador]

They can nickel-and-dime you to death with one of those. (Of course, the bigger issue on 9/11 was that people ahd learned it was best to let hijackers do their thing if one wanted to live--people were right not to fight, from that point of view, even if they thought they could win.) Remember, some of the flight attendants were found dead from knife wounds.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
Has anybody played with this yet?

Do you have a website for it?

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
With all do respect, a semi-trained knife player would kill you with one of those without a whole lot of problems.

The tool is razor sharp, and can severe most major arteries, despite what you might think. You don't need a large blade to do this. Your inside arms, neck, and inside leg arteries could all cut to pieces with ease.

Not to mention, all the preliminary cuts, and what those would do to you.

Imagine this for a moment:

a wildly slashing attacker with a box cutter... you close the gap like the good martial artists you are, and your right followed by your left moves in for the trap, as you move to deliver a powerful blow with your foot to his knee, hoping to be able to follow up with a successful disarm and barrage of strikes to the head. As you trap, your right hand becomes warm and mushy and wet for some reason. Your left hand stings like you've never felt before, as you expected to catch his wrist with your left, yet you can't even close your hand at all. Your kick thumps against something, but your focus was thrown completely off, as you glance at your arms to see blood pumping with every throb of your fast beating heart out of an artery from a gash in the inside of your left elbow; the other gash along your left forearm looks like a piece of rare beef hanging off bone. Your right palm is only cut prematurely on the palm, but that seems to sting now more then the left. But you've already stumbled with your footwork unconsciously, so you have to readjust to try to grab or punch him with your only working limb...your right hand. However, during the milisecond it takes for you to process this, you can almost hear the Pop of your right eye, as now you can no longer see out of it. You make a last ditch effort to flail a strike with your right hand as your head flinches back, and as your scream is immediately muffled by a girgling sound. Your out of breath, but when you try to inhale, all you can breath in is warm liquid. You think your on the ground by the back of your head hitting a surface of somekind, but all you can see is blackness, as you no longer know which way is up, with your last memory being your right hand measures the size of the gash in your throat, and the question of "what just happend in the last 3 seconds?" burning in your mind.

I wouldn't underestimate the power of even a small blade if I were you. You can be overtaken by a blade wielding attacker in a matter of seconds. If you make one mistake in gaining control of him you will be cut, repeatidly. He can afford to make a lot of mistakes, however, including being hit many times by your strikes, before it becomes a danger to him.

Just something to think about. I wouldn't underestimate the damage a little knife can do...

PAUL

With all do respect, I think you are over compensating a knife. I train almost daily against knifes, and I can tell you your story is a little off. Just because someone is weilding a kinfe doesn't make them super human in strength and speed as your story depicted. I'm not trying to underestimate a small knife, but as a paramedic, I can tell you from experience that a small knife like that can do bad damage, but not by mistake. A widly slashing attacker is not going to do much with that small of a blade against a trained MAist.
I think the major advantage would be the threat of violence to some one else, but as we now know, sitting still in that situation kills more.

My point is that even if you cut me three times with it in the process, I still would have shattered a knee and crushed a windpipe. I just dont see it being a weapon of choice.

7sm

 

[Rich Parsons]

7SM,

If the bad guys from 9/11 went and got some trainng on how to fly a plane and not land it. What makes you think that they did not get some basic knife training. Enough not to over swing, or to over expose their knife wielding arm?

Just a question, to better understand your point.

Yes, I agree if the person gives you the standard attack that every first learns to defend against, which is the single committed attack with just the arm. Yes if the attacker makes the classic mistakes of giving away their weapon then it could be easy for anyone with some training to stop it. How many of the passengers were trained? The average person freezes at the sign of violence. As a paramedic, I am sure you are used to most of the forms of shock.

Sorry, not trying to pick on you or anyone here. Just asking.

 

[triwahine]

I never realized the damage a knife could inflict until I went to a seminar and got a better understanding. My eyes were opened. If one is trained in using a knife, he/she knows the strikes and major points of attack. An untrained person may only understand that strength is needed to cause a good cut. One major thing I got from it all was "you are going to get cut if you confront someone else with a knife". Small knife, big knife; it really doesn't matter. The extent of damage might vary, but medical help will be needed. Just make sure to take care of yourself after having gone up against a knife. Know first aide and know wher the hospital is. Just because you may have "ruined" the attacker, doesn't mean you're out of the woods yet. Take care of yourself, injure the attacker, and get help.

B

 

[lhommedieu]

Boxcutters, for their particular time and purpose on 9/11:

I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that they were used because they was easy to conceal (i.e., a boxcutter doesn't "print" like a knife. They were probably disassembled prior to the flight, stored in carry-on luggage, and reassembled on board).

Statements about the skill needed and tactics used, etc. are somewhat off the point: the hijackers succeeded because they (1) knew how to terrorize the crew and passengers, and (2) America was used to political hijackers - no one ever thought that a pilot would deliberately fly a plane into a building. With respect to #1, women were killed in front of the passengers, who were told that the next person up out of their seat would cause another death. It's easy to say what we would have done if we were there; we weren't.

Boxcutters are:

1) Capaple of doing lethal damage even in untrained hands.
2) Difficult to take away

I think that the only reason they didn't succeed with the third plane (the one that crashed in Pennsylvania) is that some of the passengers knew by that time what was going on, and rushed the hijackers en masse. That's a far cry from going one-on-one, but who the f##k cares? God bless them.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by arnisador
Do you have a website for it?

Arnisador, look here http://www.superknife.com/ and http://www.1sks.com/store/meyerco-speed-assisted-razor-knife.html for the myerco.

Wow, when I posted this I was wondering if anyone was going to bring up 9/11. I was thinking of getting the knife strickly from a utility point of view, I can see myself using this knife for more chores around the house than any other, but there is some really good discussion going on here.

I don't think anybody thinks the knife makes anybody "invicible" or "superhuman". I do think that people that train offensively with a knife understands the damage it can do and have a certain amount of respect. I can tell you this, I would never go empty hand against this "little 1" blade if it were in the hands of my teachers, my peers, my students, or pretty much anybody that demonstrates some skill and intent. It doesn't mean I don't have confidence in my empty hand skill, and I would go in if I had too, but I'm not so niave as to think I will block it and crush the guys throat with one of my many hundred "deadly techniques". I'd probably be scared shitless, but hopefully that will help keep me alive long enough to do something.

As far as the attackers having training in knife combat. I think I remember a report claiming to have found manuals on close quarter combat which included knife fighting. There were also more than 1 attacker. While your doing your deadly moves on attacker #1 you also have to consider attacker #2, but the jump spin wheel kick should take care of him. jk.

some boxcutter handles are made of plastic, so it probably would not be difficult to conceal the blade somewhere and assemble it on the plane.

 

[Cthulhu]

A blade like the one in the photo provided by arnisandyz whould be long enough to reach quite a few major arteries. Those trained in a blade oriented system would know what those targets are, so I don't think I'll mention them. Also, these blades are razor sharp and would require next to no strength to leave a deep cut.

I don't think many people would be able to mentally cope with a blade they know to be razor sharp, or at least, their past experience with box cutter-type blades will lead them to believe the blade is razor sharp.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
Arnisador, look here http://www.superknife.com/

Thanks, I ordered one!

 

[Phil Elmore]

I've attached a picture of the Myerco.

Any knife can be razor-sharp. A real "knife fight" -- not a "knife duel," mind you -- happens so quickly that there really ought not be a lot of thinking on the part of the person on the receiving end, as generally you won't be waving your knife around attempting to use it as a deterrent.

As for range, the concept of the range of a given blade is very much overrated. In sparring with my teacher Dave, who always uses a reverse grip, I tried any number of tactics to increase my reach over his -- forward grip, longer training knife, etc. It didn't matter to him because he didn't much care what my relative reach was; he simply avoided, intercepted, or otherwise neutralized my attacks while getting in to carve me up.

Any sharp edge can be an effective self-defense tool.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
7SM,

If the bad guys from 9/11 went and got some trainng on how to fly a plane and not land it. What makes you think that they did not get some basic knife training. Enough not to over swing, or to over expose their knife wielding arm?

Just a question, to better understand your point.

Yes, I agree if the person gives you the standard attack that every first learns to defend against, which is the single committed attack with just the arm. Yes if the attacker makes the classic mistakes of giving away their weapon then it could be easy for anyone with some training to stop it. How many of the passengers were trained? The average person freezes at the sign of violence. As a paramedic, I am sure you are used to most of the forms of shock.

Sorry, not trying to pick on you or anyone here. Just asking.

No problem, I agree with you, it wouldn't be easy, adn like others have said, defending against a knife mean you gettingcut regardless. I do think the attackers had some training, and their knowledge of terrorising people is what they used, thats all good. Lets take the whole situation away from 9/11 and say its in a backalley, pretty well lit and some guy steps in between you and your girlfriend/wife and pulls a boxcutter. What then? as a MAist you would have to addres the situation. Thats what I'm trying to get at. The boxcutter, away from the situation they were used in 9/11 is not a weapon I would fear to the point of not protecting myself or someone else. Thats all I'm saying, regardless of the cuts I receive, I'm also trained to not expose vital areas for them to cut. I just think a boxcutter type weapon is not one that would stop a trained MAist if they were forced to defend against it.

Originally posted by arnisandyz
As far as the attackers having training in knife combat. I think I remember a report claiming to have found manuals on close quarter combat which included knife fighting. There were also more than 1 attacker. While your doing your deadly moves on attacker #1 you also have to consider attacker #2, but the jump spin wheel kick should take care of him. jk.

I'm not trying to say I'm a dangerous killing machine, but you have a knife and your attacking me, I'm not going to worry about wether a throat stirke was a little too hard or not. Oh, and I would never in my life use a jump spin wheel kick on anything. I train in only serious reality fighting techniques. In my system, we almost never kick above the groin, most we use crushing knee kciks. And I can tell you from training with my Sifu and sihings that it doesn't take more than a few seconds for someone with real training who is in a serious situation to take out an attacker with any type of weapon. The training these guys had was meager at best, I just with they had tried to highjack a plane full of trained MAist, that would have been a bad day for them.

7sm

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I'm not trying to say I'm a dangerous killing machine, but you have a knife and your attacking me, I'm not going to worry about wether a throat stirke was a little too hard or not. Oh, and I would never in my life use a jump spin wheel kick on anything.
7sm [/B]

My post wasn't pointed directly at you, but to those people who think they have the answer to everything. I don't know you personally, but you are bringing up some good conversation.

I wasn't really refering to the amount of force used, but more the attitude that many have going in against person with a knife. Sorry for the miscommunication again.

Although you have trained against a knife (I don't know the extent of your training so I 'll assume it is as realistic as saftey permits) do you think you average blackbelt (trained MArtist) would react the same way as yourself?

I think if any "properly trained" MArtist came to a point to where they HAD to do somthing the size or type of weapon won't really matter. For example...to use your street situation - a guy pulls a boxcutter on you and your wife and newborn baby - you can't run and leave your family behind - you see he only has a boxcutter so you stand and fight. If he had a butcher knife would the situation be any different? It might look more intimidating, but i think you'll still defend your family if needed.