Focus points on knife attacks

[RichK]

The other day I just got and read through JAN 06 BB mag. The article on Krav Maga made a statement that I just want to see varying oppinions. The statement is "Focus on the knife hand; don't worry about his eyes because they can't hurt you." I have a different focus point but just want to see what others are and what syle (as that also may have a varying effect).

 

[MartialIntent]

I've always been mentored to focus centre mass - that opens both your central and peripheral vision to potential body weapons and external weapons the opponent may care to utilise.

True enough, the eyes can't hurt you per se but the eyes of course are the mirror to the soul. However because the eyes are an indicator of intent and because so much of our eye movements are a subconscious reflection of what our brains want to look at, it may be possible to gain the advantage by observing the eyes - with enough practise and training could it [in theory at least] be possible to develop some feel for an opponents next move?? Hmmm... very interesting. Perfecting that would certainly take one to the next level of one's discipline!

Actually, I'd quite enjoy giving that little game of predict-a-move a try at the dojo.

 

[rutherford]

What if there are two knives? What if you only know about one of them?

 

[MartialIntent]

What if there are two knives? What if you only know about one of them?

Obviously it'd take a skilled practitioner to properly work two weapons simultaneously - two nunchucks may be spinning but the unsophisticated fighter may actually only be able to direct one at a time. In which case two weapons are not necessarily more ominous than the one. The contrary may even be true.

However, two knives and an opponent skilled enough to work them? Let me see, that leaves 3 options: confident verbal de-escalation, prepare to bleed, run!

I'd still suggest that the opponents breastbone is the best location on which to settle ones focus. Over concentration on the eyes would have merit if one could utilise subconscious signals correctly, otherwise it may be too high and may cause knee, shin and foot weapons to be missed.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Under stress, such as a weapon confronting you, most folks obtain tunnel vision. This is natures way of directing you to the immediate probelm. You will focus on the knife if being attacked, if you see it before hand. If you don't see the weapon, then your dead. Folks can what if till the cows come home, but it won't change the fact of what you will do if your confronted by someone who shows the knife, first to intimidate and then to attack.

 

[rutherford]

Obviously it'd take a skilled practitioner to properly work two weapons simultaneously.

Or one knife he shows you, but doesn't intend to use because he's hiding another.

Or a buddy behind you.

 

[Nanalo74]

What if you trap the knife hand and he punches you in the face, or kicks you in the shin?

Focus on the knife hand, huh? ok. you do that. i'll fake with the blade, punch you in the mouth, then stick you.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[Brad Dunne]

Focus on the knife hand, huh? ok. you do that. i'll fake with the blade, punch you in the mouth, then stick you.

I'm always amazed at the folks that always want to put the great "what if" into the mix. Yes you focus on what will potentially KILL YOU. Biomechanics has a lot to do with training and technique concepts. Just because the focus is on the weapon, dosen't mean that you stay in one place and open yourself up to other possibilities. You focus on and as you attempt to push/grab/trap the attacking limb, you also deliver a strike in the process. Me personally, I'm going right for the throat if I'm in range or for the knee if I'm out of that range. Then and only then do I attempt a disarm or just break the arm, whatever comes first. Understand here and apparently most folks don't, we're not trying to deal with the infamous "trained knife fighter" that everybody likes to think there going to face. We train for the thug in the street, who uses a knife but is not the Zorro of folks imaginations.

 

[rutherford]

1. Strawman
2. Misleading Vividness
3. Gambler's Fallacy

 

[Nanalo74]

I'm always amazed at the folks that always want to put the great "what if" into the mix. Yes you focus on what will potentially KILL YOU. Biomechanics has a lot to do with training and technique concepts. Just because the focus is on the weapon, dosen't mean that you stay in one place and open yourself up to other possibilities. You focus on and as you attempt to push/grab/trap the attacking limb, you also deliver a strike in the process. Me personally, I'm going right for the throat if I'm in range or for the knee if I'm out of that range. Then and only then do I attempt a disarm or just break the arm, whatever comes first. Understand here and apparently most folks don't, we're not trying to deal with the infamous "trained knife fighter" that everybody likes to think there going to face. We train for the thug in the street, who uses a knife but is not the Zorro of folks imaginations.

Really?
So if you train to deal with a thug and you happen to get into a fight with someone that knows what they're doing what do you do then? I always thought it was the other way around. I thought we were supposed to train to fight the trained fighter so when we get into a confrontation with someone that doesn't know all that much we have a better chance of survival.
Guess I was wrong.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[rutherford]

Thanks for pointing out the hasty generalization.

My arguement is simply a caution against focusing on what you believe might kill you. There are a lot of ways to die. That a single knife might kill you ignores a lot that I consider important, like your opponent and the situation.

 

[arnisador]

There's a lot to be said with going with the odds, which are indeed that a knifer will use his knife. But I agree that staring at the knife leaves you too open for that left cross.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Really?
So if you train to deal with a thug and you happen to get into a fight with someone that knows what they're doing what do you do then? I always thought it was the other way around. I thought we were supposed to train to fight the trained fighter so when we get into a confrontation with someone that doesn't know all that much we have a better chance of survival.
Guess I was wrong.

I don't know where that particular concept came from, perhaps from the advent of the MMA's. Rule #1 in any form of combat, "Never underestimate your opponent". You won't know if your opponent is trained until your into the fight itself. This is where the catch 22 comes into play. I for one don't want to fight, so if my training is valid, then I should be able to counter the attacker - if he actually does attack. He makes the first move, unless for some strange reason I know he's armed and is going for his weapon, then I can deliver the first response, if in range. If not then it's disengage time post haste.

The one thing that folks also seem to overlook is the fact that the attacker dosen't or should'nt know that he's dealing with a trained person. You now have a least one thing on yourside, the element of surprise. Also I referenced the aspect of biomechanics earlier. If you know how to watch your opponent and move away from their positioning, then you put them at a disavantage, because they are now doing something different. You should at least attempt to not place yourself in the vacinity of being attacked with the other limb or know how to crowd that limb so it will have minimal if any impact in the proceedings. Again, as was stated prior, I'm not just attempting to grab and hold on to the attacking limb, but I'm also delivering some form of strike in the process. I'm focusing on the weapon because if I don't know where it is, it's most likely in me......

 

[Kenpodoc]

I'm certainly not a skilled knife fighter but I'm more successful if I don't concentrate on the knife. Most of the people I train with are younger and quicker than me and they will beat me if I concentrate on the weapon. If I am aware of the weapon but concentrate on neutralizing my attacker I'm more likely to be successful.Several factors are at work here.

1. Peripheral vision responds quicker to movement.
2. Sooner or later I miss the counter so I have to disable my attacker quickly.
3. I want to get my attacker thinking defense as quickly as possible.

My son wears an Al McLuckie Tee shirt which says - "THERE IS NOKNIFE". Personally I think this is a more effective approach for me.

Jeff:asian:

 

[Nanalo74]

All I'm saying is that it's best to fight the man, not the weapon. Of course you have to be aware of the weapon. If not, you may die.
A guy puts up his dukes and starts throwing jabs and hooks your adrenaline kicks in, your reflexes and training come in to play, etc. But when someone pulls out a blade, all that stuff multiplies by a thousand. Now you're aware that if that thing even grazes you, you're in trouble. So yeah, the first inclination is to focus on it. But that's dangerous because it's the man who's trying to kill you not the knife. The knife is his instrument as are his other hand, his feet, his teeth and whatever else he decides to use to end you.
That's why I'm saying don't get so focused on the weapon that you lose sight of whatever else might be coming.
In the Filipino arts, we're taught sectoring and our empty hands come directly from the weapons training, so when we trap the weapon hand it is in such a way as to keep the opponent from attacking us with the other hand and put us in a position to counter without risk of being killed or stabbed, which I guess is what Brad meant when he mentioned biomechanics.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[Brad Dunne]

"so when we trap the weapon hand it is in such a way as to keep the opponent from attacking us with the other hand and put us in a position to counter without risk of being killed or stabbed, which I guess is what Brad meant when he mentioned biomechanics".

Thinking along the very same lines here, but I should clarify my original statement. The untrained person will focus totally on the weapon, hence the tunnel vision analogy. The trained fighter will also focus, but not fixate on the weapon. The biomechanics eluded to is the way we would understand how the attacker's body is moving and delivering his attack. We use body positioning / angles to enhance our defense and counters. Learning how to minimize additional threats while undertaking the initial defense of the attack is a key to survival.

 

[Nanalo74]

Thinking along the very same lines here, but I should clarify my original statement. The untrained person will focus totally on the weapon, hence the tunnel vision analogy. The trained fighter will also focus, but not fixate on the weapon. The biomechanics eluded to is the way we would understand how the attacker's body is moving and delivering his attack. We use body positioning / angles to enhance our defense and counters. Learning how to minimize additional threats while undertaking the initial defense of the attack is a key to survival.

Agreed.

 

[Knarfan]

"so when we trap the weapon hand it is in such a way as to keep the opponent from attacking us with the other hand and put us in a position to counter without risk of being killed or stabbed, which I guess is what Brad meant when he mentioned biomechanics".

Thinking along the very same lines here, but I should clarify my original statement. The untrained person will focus totally on the weapon, hence the tunnel vision analogy. The trained fighter will also focus, but not fixate on the weapon. The biomechanics eluded to is the way we would understand how the attacker's body is moving and delivering his attack. We use body positioning / angles to enhance our defense and counters. Learning how to minimize additional threats while undertaking the initial defense of the attack is a key to survival.

Good points! You really do have to create some type of doubt or confusion for at least a split second. You really can't just fixate on the blade it makes it to easy for the guy with the blade. especially if he has any skill, which you should assume he does. After all, he is the one attacking, so he must know somthing .

 

[jbclinic]

in my opinion use the A A O adapt- adjust-overcome, a calm approach/defense will often determine the what if's