Finish where you started.

[chinto01]

I got into an interesting conversation with a fellow practitioner and the topic was about kata and the theory that you should finish a kata exactly where you started. Was wondering if anyone else has heard this theory and if so what was the explanation given to you?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[terryl965]

Well in the TKD Tae Guek Poomsae we start and end at the exact spot, it is a way of you doing your movement exactly frontwards and backwards

 

[Bigshadow]

I got into an interesting conversation with a fellow practitioner and the topic was about kata and the theory that you should finish a kata exactly where you started. Was wondering if anyone else has heard this theory and if so what was the explanation given to you?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

I have heard of it! I suspect it is because it is a measure of your ability to control your own body movements. I don't believe it is a tactical specification, but a benchmark for your progress, an exercise of skill. Just my .02 cents worth.

 

[stickarts]

Several of our forms finish where they started. The form is a symmetrical one and if you finish in a different place it tells you that your footwork is off at some point in the kata.
From time to time, we will do the form blidfolded and see if we end up precisely where we started.
Its also fun doing the form blindfolded and gives you another way to practice.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is less common in the Chinese arts. Sometimes it holds true, many times it does not.

 

[Grenadier]

Yes and no.

Some kata are symmetrical (follow the classical "I" pattern) and you should end up roughly in the same spot.

Others are not symmetrical, and if you end up in the same spot, you might have made a stepping mistake somewhere along the way.

 

[shesulsa]

We do this as well, though I don't recall if I asked for any explanation beyond that it was just part of doing the form.

 

[chinto01]

The conversation I had with this individual was very interesting. He was very convinced that the each kata was designed to begin and end in the same place. I on the other hand believe that this is one theory that may be a little exagerated. Do we really think the old masters thought of this concept when developing the forms?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Mustafa]

It is not possible to finish the kata if you dont practise it to start with.

 

[charyuop]

My Tai Chi teacher said that our 24 form has to finish where we started. He explained me that this is wanted so that you keep a balance between the width of the steps when you walk forward and when you walk backwards.
Lemme tell you the fact of ending where you started (we are not required yet, coz he defines it an advanced level, but I still try to do it), makes you stretch your legs pretty well.

 

[exile]

The conversation I had with this individual was very interesting. He was very convinced that the each kata was designed to begin and end in the same place. I on the other hand believe that this is one theory that may be a little exagerated. Do we really think the old masters thought of this concept when developing the forms?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

People sometimes say this is part of `enbusen' in karate. The idea is, as suggested in one of the earlier posts, that you should know exactly where your body is in relation to the lines of movement wrt any opponent, imaginary or not, and be able to control that movement precisely, as part of training for actual combat. But a lot of the rules regulating the form and performanceof kata are conventional---having to do with artificial rules rather than functionally effective interpretation---or guided by the need to economize on dojo floor space...

 

[Cirdan]

Altough I`ve heard of this theory, none of the schools I have trained at have made a point of this. In fact, one very simple kata we practice makes it impossible to end up in the same place if preformed properly (unless you take a step to the side into yo-oi).

 

[charyuop]

It might be that the Masters don't want to stress too much about it coz it might take away your concentration from the kata and you would just keep staring at your feet and position.

Interesting would be to know, in a kata contest do they look at the begin/end positions?

 

[The Kidd]

In our basic forms they are symmetrical and end in the same spot our more advanced ones you do not. When I have judged at Tournaments if someone is doing a basic form then that is one of my tiebreaking points I look at. We do teach our students that they should end at the same spot on those certain forms to make them aware of there spacing and stride.

 

[searcher]

I speculate that it has to do with the circle of life and all. You know, just like the black belt that that goes back to white after enough time. Everything comes full circle. Just random thoughts. It may have something to do with symmetry.

 

[exile]

Altough I`ve heard of this theory, none of the schools I have trained at have made a point of this. In fact, one very simple kata we practice makes it impossible to end up in the same place if preformed properly (unless you take a step to the side into yo-oi).

It varies from school to school. JasonASmith, one of our MT regulars, started a whole thread on the problem of ending in exactly the same place where you began the form, since his instructor is very strict about this. My instructor isn't a stickler on the point for lower ranks but really does want you to conform to that rule, and the more advanced you are, the more demanding he is about that kind of formal performance rule.

I think the historically more recent kata/hyungs may have been composed with this requirement in mind more than the older ones... just a hunch, though.

 

[Kacey]

The Ch'ang H'on (ITF TKD) pattern set is designed for each form to start and end on the same point, as an indication that your stances are correct - because you can only end where you start if all of your stances are consistent in terms of length and width; otherwise, you'll land off. Other factors can, of course, affect where you land also - stepping or turning the wrong direction, not sliding or slipping when you should, etc. - but consistency in stances is a major point in landing where you start in theses forms.

 

[JasonASmith]

Yes, I am aware of it, and I HATE it!
Actually, I'm getting much better with attaining Embusen...
Correct stancework is what I was told Embusen represents, and since my Sensei and I are of like mind considering stances(mainly because he beats the proper techniques into me), it's important...
If your stances are correct, then your base is correct, which is the first step in doing things right...and not getting hit!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Kata's are great for practicing....in the real world distance and were you start doesn't matter, in a real fight.

Kata's has a purpose...use it for that purpose. Remember real fighting is anything goes,total chaos,no rules,...just survival

Finish the fight when it started, and maybe where it started too...but for Kata's has no relations to real fighting! Just my thoughts on this....Aloha

PS: sparring is closer to real fighting...