filipino boxing???

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts - General' started by MMAfighter, Jul 11, 2005.

  1. MMAfighter

    MMAfighter Green Belt

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    Does anyone know where I can find videos of this style or can anyone explain how its like? I mean like is it just punching and more like western boxing or more like muay thai or chinese boxing or something.
     
  2. OULobo

    OULobo Senior Master

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    Look up Panatukan. I know that one of the best in the states was the late Ted Lucaylucay. He had a few videos out on the subject.
     
  3. Nanalo74

    Nanalo74 Blue Belt

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  4. Mark Lynn

    Mark Lynn Master Black Belt

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    Ted Lucay Lucay had a couple of videos on the subject.

    1) Unique Publications Panatukan Boxing
    2) (?) Blade to Boxing (2 tape set)

    Dan Inosanto also had a few videos on the subject I think in his newer video/DVD series.

    Steve Grody also had a few videos on Filipino hands (not nessecarily Boxing but dealing just with the empty hand aspect of the FMA. Pretty decent if I remember right but it's been many years since I've seen them.
     
  5. leomel pino

    leomel pino Yellow Belt

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    how about clips?
     
  6. MMAfighter

    MMAfighter Green Belt

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    yea...heh thats what i was thinking too...o well, thanks anyways guys
     
  7. arnisandyz

    arnisandyz Master Black Belt

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    All of these men are linked in the JKD circles and the information will overlap. I believe alot of the Filipino Emptyhands comes from Ted LucayLucays father Lucky LucayLucay and from Lacoste.

    There is also a documentary on Pinoy Boxing...
    http://www.mybarong.com/grpinoyboxers.html
     
  8. Ted Lucay Lucay made some great videos on the subject. Also Dan Inosanto has a newer series of 5 videos and one is called Panatukan. Filipino boxing uses unorthodox angles for moving and striking. Great approach for street self-defence based on the blade. Just put any of the above subjects into a web search engine and enjoy.
     
  9. Ern-Dog

    Ern-Dog Yellow Belt

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  10. John J

    John J Green Belt

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    FMATalk has an on-going thread on the so-called Filipino boxing coined Panantukan.

    Panantukan and Pananjakman is relatively unknown in the Philippines. I believe Panantukan to be empty-hand methods developed by the JKD community which incorporates Western boxing. If you break down some of the principles such as the sectoring, checking, monitoring and the idea that knife use was also a transferred aspect, it is obvious the base foundation is NOT a form of boxing rather a simple name.

    Other than that, boxing in the Philippines is called BOXING not Filipino boxing and looks like Western boxing. Similarly, kicking/kickboxing styles are Yaw-yan and Sikaran to name a few.

    JohnJ
     
  11. Nanalo74

    Nanalo74 Blue Belt

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    Just posted some instructional clips on my site. Check out the clip of Barry teaching my class in NY.

    Vic www.combatartsusa.com
     
  12. Ern-Dog

    Ern-Dog Yellow Belt

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    Here is but one example that your theory may be incorrect....

    http://krishnagodhania.org/articles/boxing.html

    Guro Krishna has studied under two Panantuken/Pangamut instructors in the Philippines.
     
  13. John J

    John J Green Belt

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    How do you figure, because an article that Krishna wrote from his research? My comment was on the current art coined "panantukan" not pangamot which is a generic term for "use of hands" which btw... is more commonly known in the Philippines. Panantukan also a generic word was drawn from Suntukan (to strike) while Panan is commonly referred to as a verb / a form of action, hence “the art of striking”.

    The article does nothing to validate that an art form of Panantukan exists and is indigenous to the Philippines. And my guess is if you were to travel to the PI and ask who teaches it, you would not find an instructor. There are auhentic styles such as Yaw-Yan, Sikaran, Kuntaw/Kuntao and there are generic names like pangumot popularized by the Canete family or even Sagasa within the Bakbakan organization. BTW...the tactics as described is also called streetfighting. Possibly a mix of native wrestling called Buno brings out the wrenching aspects

    Where does it reference the 2 as Panantukan instructors except for the indication given by Krishna???? It states Tanny was a boxer. Could it be the term panantukan is being used lightly?


    JohnJ
     
  14. Ern-Dog

    Ern-Dog Yellow Belt

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    I said your theory MAY be incorrect.....



    This statement implies that you're saying there is no empty hand boxing art indigenous to the Philippines. But in your last post you state that....



    So does this mean that you believe that there IS or IS NOT an indigenous striking art that resembles boxing that originates in the PI. From your post I gather that you don't like the TERM Panantuken, would you rather call it Pangamut? To me they are interchangeable, just a name.



    You haven’t offered any information to INvalidate the claim either.



    I totally agree. I would GUESS that it may take considerably more than one trip to the PI to find a Panantuken/Pangamut/Sunktokan instructor.

    From the article:

    "Old teachers are rarer yet. Most have passed away. I was fortunate to find two in the Philippines (Manong Tanny Campo and Manong Dicoy Veraye); this was after a decade of research - most of which was off the beaten track."

    He didn't guess. He actually traveled there and spent a lot of time and energy trying to find these instructors. If you choose not to believe him, that is your right. I've met Guro Krishna and trained along side him and I believe him to be a skilled practitioner and very knowledgeable instructor of the FMA. So I choose to believe what it states in the article.

     
  15. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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  16. John J

    John J Green Belt

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    Wrong. I am saying there is no actual system known as Panantukan in the PI.

    Read above. There is no doubt many not all empty-hand arts and sub-systems of Arnis/ Eskrima have boxing aspects. It has nothing to do with not liking a term. It has all to do with providing accurate information on indigenous combat art forms/systems in the Philippines. I believe Panantukan as popularized by the Western FMA community or do you want me to limit it to JKD players was a development. This is not to say that aspects are not genuinely Filipino, just that the system as a whole was not something that was created in the PI. Much like Kina Mutai" the so-called art of biting, pinching and at one point spitting". Many practitioners to instructors back home found it absurd, poked fun at the thought and some were offended. I hope this clears up my point.

    The pangamot methods in various systems are sub-systems of the main art. And while I am certain there are some similarities in terms of principles & techniques, there are also significant distinctions. Some may include boxing aspects and knife concepts while others were developed from stick work and emphasis is on locking, controlling and take downs. It is my understanding that GM Cacoy Canete’s pangamot was formerly known as combat Judo. The is just one example why I personally don’t consider them interchangeable.

    Just for further clarification, my focus is not on Krishna's article because first off, the article initially discusses the evolution of boxing and some milestones. There is a short assertion that implies an influence on Naval personnel boxers about the on-guard position, speed and footwork (all traits which are basic essentials to boxing) due to "knife" training. Coincidentally, other accounts also imply that Elorde's footwork influenced Ali when he was quoted as stating Sugar Ray Robinson influenced it. I am breaking this down piece by piece to highlight the article. Now, aside from using the words "panantukan (aka pangamot)" in 1 sentence including Tanny’s quotes, NOTHING identifies him as a Panantukan instructor but a boxer who has shared his view. It was merely implied. Do your research on Tanny "Del" Campo and you’ll likely find that all roads lead back to only 1 article, Krishna's. Then search Tanny Campo in historical boxing databases and you will find quite more history. I do not doubt that he may have developed his own pangamot methods through boxing & personal experiences. However, I am AGAIN only referring to the legitimacy of a SYSTEM coined Panantukan. Read above. I guess if you consider the 2 interchangeable then there is no other reasoning on your part and that is fine. But, for those who recognize the differences then my comments may have some validity, no? Regarding knife concepts, it only goes on to describing a training methodology with the use of a knife to enhance awareness and speed. That is it! Could it be that concepts of the knife in this panantukan was more a training methodology?

    I don't doubt Krishna's efforts. I also did not comment blindly. I too have done my share of research here and in the Philippines, have spoken with numerous instructors and practitioners of various systems, read books etc. Comments have been consistent with the origin of Panantukan.
    Let it be clear that my findings are NOT to discredit the effort and knowledge of certain people from the Panantukan lineage NOR is it to take away from the art as an effective means of combat. If we are not to evolve then why bother training? Afterall, developing a method of combat in the U.S. that is somewhat rooted in FMA is NOT a bad thing by any means. Believing Krishna again is NOT the issue. And it’s good to know you find him skilled and knowledgeable. I too have heard good things. I agree that we are both entitled to our beliefs and opinions.

    Hope to have clarified my comments.

    John J
    www.swacom.com
     
  17. peter

    peter Yellow Belt

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    Hi Guys

    This is an interesting thread and one that I would like to share some thoughts on.

    Having trained with Guro Krishna for over 10 years and until recently being his most senior student, I can say that the term "pangamut" is used to refer to the empty-handed boxing / striking aspect of Warrior's Eskrima as taught by Guro Krishna and contained within his syllabus. Tanny 'Del' Campo is a well known and respected boxer from a past era in the Philippines and he certainly has had a strong influence on Guro Krishna's approach to pangamut. In over 10 years of training as a private and senior student of Guro Krishna, I have never heard the art of Tanny Campo referred to as "panantukan."

    Guro Krishna does make use of the term "panantukan" but this only came to use in recent years and only after his involvement in JKD.

    I have travelled to the Philippines many times and have been married into the culture for almost 19 years. I have certainly not heard the term "panantukan" used to describe boxing in the Philippines. Master Yuli Romo once clarified that his art of "pamantukan" should not be confused with "panantukan" as used by Guro Dan Inosanto. It certainly appears that the term "panantukan" is not known or used in the Philippines, but has been popularised by Guro Dan and JKD practitioners.

    Best regards to all

    Peter
    www.yuli-romo.com
     
  18. Ern-Dog

    Ern-Dog Yellow Belt

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    Reading the other thread gave me a little better understanding of where you're coming from.

    We are in total agreement.

    Here's where my opinion differs from yours. If you ask three different Filipino martial artists how they would describe a certain movement (in the FMA’s ) a majority of the time you would get two if not three different answers. I've shown techniques to other FMA practitioners and referred to the techniques as Panantuken, while they might call the same movement Dumog or Pangamut/Pangamot. With so many different styles and so many different dialects this is bound to occur.

    Again, this is just a follow-up to the point I made above. One of Guro Dan Insosanto's many teachers of the FMA was Manong John Lacoste. He immigrated from the Philippines to Hawaii and then eventually to California. Guro Inosanto himself has said that what he teaches (Panantuken) comes from two main sources Manong Lacoste (originally from the PI) as well as Lucky and Ted Lucaylucay. They referred to it as Panantuken or Pangamut, and also called it Suntukan. The reason that they did not want to refer to what they taught as Suntukan was because it all too much resembled Shotokan, and they didn't want people mixing the two up believing they were one-in-the same.

    No. For as many differences that you can recognize, I can show you just as many similarities (on the whole). At this point we're just splitting hairs, so I agree to disagree.


    Great Thread! Here's some others......

    http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=206&start=0

    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355469&highlight=panantukan

    http://mma.tv/tuf/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=706083&FID=21&pc=34
     
  19. Toasty

    Toasty Green Belt

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    Regarding the term Panantukan...

    It was suggested to be used by Dan Inosanto, I believe by "Lucky" Lucay-Lucay, because he felt that people would confuse Suntukan with the style of Shotokan because of the similar sounding name.
     
  20. John J

    John J Green Belt

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    Thanks for your feedback. Yes, I have heard similar Dan Inosanto accounts from those you cited. I am sure there are many similarities too and as you said there are so many systems. Such distinctions I pointed out are vastly dues an instructor's background as well.

    We are not splitting hairs (besides, I cannot afford to lose anymore [​IMG]). We are simply expressing our opinions some which have strong convictions. I find such discussion the most beneficial to all.

    John J
    www.swacom.com
     

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