"Evilness"and "morality" of Martial Arts

[Darth F.Takeda]

Ceicei,

I am sorry to hear of your delema, it's not one that has a quick, conciese answer, as you have alot at stake.

I know what it is like to be in a school where the atmosphere and training is taking a turn for the worse, in my case (Years ago) it led to a long absence from active training in the martial arts.

I would say if your with in a year from shodan, then unless it starts to get real stupid, stay till you get the belt and then LEAVE.

If it will be a few years and you will have to suffer from the watered down training, it can damge your combative abilities, so then I would leave now.

I am glad you are also studying Jujutsu. We pride ourselves in passing down techniques and tactics that give you a wide range in the force options, from "Ouch!" to dead. Several of our Shodans are also DZR shodan's, it's a good art. Maybe you could dive into it a little more?
Take the Kenpo you have learned and over time you will find where it can serve you to better apply your Jujutsu. Let me know if that's what you do, I too had a Kenpo, TKD-TSD background when I entered into Traditional/Combat Jujutsu.

On your question of how to teach the deadlier techniques and liability.

I find myself saying "For informational purposes only, this can be done like this." and I make it clear that only they can tell them when it's time to use maiming or crippling force. We only train adults anyways, and we have a high attrition rate and we like it that way.

If you are ever in Northern Virginia, come by and train with us, we use evil and good techniques.

 

[Ceicei]

Thank you for your comments, thoughts, and suggestions.

I plan on devoting more of my energy with Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. I have come to realize that I want to earn rank that truly means something to me. I feel a lot of satisfaction training and I feel happy associating there. However, I still want to train with Kenpo somehow. I have spent so many years learning Kenpo that I am reluctant to give up this style.

For the moment, I'll stay with the current studio while I seek around for other Kenpo options. I was supposed to test in 6 months; I seriously think from the way things are going, it may not actually be that soon. I am not sure if I will stay just to get a black belt. I am still wrestling with whether getting one from them would be "worth it".

My heart is not with that studio, and I never was able to form an allegiance for these instructors. They are good people, they are caring, and are trying hard how to teach as well as run a school. Unfortunately, they cannot offer me what I seek when our views of self defense differ so greatly.

I am friends with other kenpoists from neighboring studios. I've visited other places that held seminars. I have realized how important it is to find instructors who have similar views, not just with how the environment is in the school and the training dynamics between instructor/student. It will take me a while to search for a place.

I also plan on tracking down my former instructor (the one I've trained under for a long time) to get his feedback. It would be nice if perhaps I could secure private lessons with him, or at least get some recommendations from him with who I could train. He knows already the way I think, how I learn, and my training goals.

I cannot continue to train under instructors who consider any part of my training to be "evil". Yet, I feel I would be disloyal if I leave. I am their most senior ranked student and I know the other students there look up to me. Wouldn't this confuse the other students?

Why do I feel so conflicted here? Isn't the journey supposed to be my path that will help benefit and strengthen me to be better overall?

I wish the mist that covers my path now would fade away to give me a clear view.

- Ceicei

 

[morph4me]

CeiCei,

The fact that you're questioning the worth of a black belt from these instructors speaks volumes. Since you're focus seems to be self defense, you can't afford the luxury of doubting the effectiveness of what you're being taught.

I understand you being conflicted about being loyal to the school, but you can't reach your goals training there. You started on one path, with a guide that was going in the direction that you wanted to go, now the guide, and direction, has changed but your goal remains the same. Where is their loyalty to their students?

You owe it to yourself to reach your goals. Each individual has to make a decision as to what's best for themselves, you do and the other students do as well. You have to do what's best for CeiCei, and the other students have to do what's best for themselves. Good luck in making your decision. :asian:

 

[Ceicei]

The school or the instructors? <shrug>

I feel like I'm disloyal to the other students. You're right, they decide their own path and make their own choices. I've slept this over during the night and I no longer feel conflicted about leaving.

I'll just follow through with what I originally planned--stay to train for now while I look for another kenpo school and seek the advice of trusted kenpoists (ie. my former instructors). It will be interesting to see where the path leads on my journey.

I've decided not to worry right now whether or when I get my black belt. I will just focus upon getting quality instruction from instructors who do not determine whether a technique or a move is evil or moral. I know I'll be a black belt eventually and that belt will mean something to me.

- Ceicei

 

[jks9199]

The school or the instructors? <shrug>

I feel like I'm disloyal to the other students. You're right, they decide their own path and make their own choices. I've slept this over during the night and I no longer feel conflicted about leaving.

I'll just follow through with what I originally planned--stay to train for now while I look for another kenpo school and seek the advice of trusted kenpoists (ie. my former instructors). It will be interesting to see where the path leads on my journey.

I've decided not to worry right now whether or when I get my black belt. I will just focus upon getting quality instruction from instructors who do not determine whether a technique or a move is evil or moral. I know I'll be a black belt eventually and that belt will mean something to me.

- Ceicei

YOUR journey in the martial arts is your own journey. Especially after changing schools several times, you owe it to yourself to be in a school that you are comfortable with, and that answers your own needs. The example that you show to your juniors in the school is just that; that when a particular instructor's methods are at significant odds to your goals or needs or beliefs, you can't stay there. This would be as true if they were extremely in the reverse, focusing solely on lethal techniques and conducting practice muggings and killings in class, not to practice defenses but to practice actual mugging and killing.

 

[Balrog]

Stuff and nonsense.

Martial arts are neither good nor bad until first they are used by a good or bad person. Same way no firearm ever loaded, aimed, and fired itself.

And just who the hell are these people that they dictate what is "moral" and "evil" to others?

As politikally inkorrekt as it is, it remains the truth nonetheless: there are certain rare times when it is perfectly appropriate to kill someone.

If they are not mature enough to handle that fact and know who of their students can and can't handle learning that level yet then, frankly, they have no goddamned business teaching, irrespective of rank.

Well stated!!!

 

[Ceicei]

I talked to one of my current instructors last night. We talked about our martial arts philosophies and our perspectives, the differences and similarities. We also discussed my training goals. I can continue to work with both the old and new versions.

We'll see how things go....

- Ceicei

 

[JBrainard]

I talked to one of my current instructors last night. We talked about our martial arts philosophies and our perspectives, the differences and similarities. We also discussed my training goals. I can continue to work with both the old and new versions.

We'll see how things go....

- Ceicei

Well, that's good for you and your training, at least.

 

[Balrog]

Personally, I don't think any physical move with any martial art is "evil" or "moral". I think this is all within the intent of the person making these moves.

Any thought or observation to share?

I agree. A gun is not evil by itself. A knife is not evil by itself. A club is not evil by itself. It takes the intent of a human to use them to injure another.

Same with a side kick.

 

[Empty Hands]

Well, you are all correct of course. MA techniques, like a knife or a gun or a well-trained attack dog, are morally neutral.

Unfortunately, that is completely true and also almost completely irrelevant. The social direction, from the attitudes of judges and legislatures, all the way down to everyday people like tellner's sister is quite clear. Almost any sort of physical preparedness, training, or confrontation is quickly becoming unacceptable.

We have seen this from extra sentences or harsher treatment doled out to martial artists in self-defense cases in court. We have seen it in how sports like MMA, boxing or even wrestling are being declared "barbaric" and have come under increasing legislative pressure or even outright banning. We have seen it in how simple fistfights or confrontations that would have been forgotten twenty years ago now involve significant criminal and civil liability. We have also increasingly seen it in the attitudes of everyday people who attach moral qualities to taking karate or having a pocketknife. (I actually saw this once in a cutlery store. A woman wouldn't touch the defense knives - they were "evil". Of course, her giant kitchen shears that could tear through my heart like tissue paper were perfectly fine.) Paradoxically, as we've become more divorced from the reality of daily violence, we've become increasingly afraid of it, even for "good" purposes like self-defense. The only exception I can think of to this trend are rape-defense courses for women, and even these are frowned upon if they go "too far".

Now, would I ever want to "water down" what I study or cripple my ability to defend myself in extremity? Never. But be prepared folks, it is only a matter of time. Our ability to study arts like these will be gone one day, I think. Or, the penalties for actually using them in real life will be so severe that it will effectively prevent everyday people from learning them.

 

[Sanchin-J]

There's no "evilness" in the martial art itself, its designed to do what it does, granted you have to realize that it's the individual using it that defines what exactly the martial art does. There is nothing wrong with learning and practicing lethal techniques at all, it doesn't mean you have to use them, it just means if you have no other choice, those options are available to you.

It's all about the individual and situation they are in, to take the higher damage or lethal force techniques out of an art because of their potential to do serious damage or kill someone is wrong. If I were you, I'd ask the instructors why they haven't taken out strikes to the throat, eyes and head all together as well then. Any one of the fundamental strikes if applied correctly can do just as much damage or kill an opponent.

It almost sounds like they are adjusting their particular style to fit a competition environment where there are rules and what not. If that's the case, then they aren't teaching Self Defense any more, they are teaching techniques to be used in a sport like boxing or kick boxing.

 

[kaizasosei]

the more ways you know how to really hurt someone, the more you have to be careful. the more weakspots and possible techniques you see, the more clumsy life will become.
to hurt or to kill is not that difficult. even a fool can do it if he puts his mind to it. i think that, to defend yourself without making things worse with excessive violence is a worthwhile goal for martial artists. if you want to be a killer, there are less artsy forms of violence. but martial arts is supposed to be art. art is a form of free expression. in actuality, it doesnt even require explaination.

i myself have noticed, that many people, dont know the strength of the techniques or even their own stregth. that can be dangerous. i have seen people pull moves and spared with people that seemed to me to be trying to really do some nasty damage. usualy as things go, people have ways of dealing and mostly evade, but if any of those moves were to actually succeed, could have devastating results. why though? it's just sparing...i have a hard time keeping in control with those situations, but i find ways.
i think it's good to be concious of very ones actions.
sometimes, i imagine that all people are kings, gods or innocent children. i like to treat everyone equally. imagine how much care you would have to take though if you were to provide service to a god or a king.
so also in reverse, if someone treats you any other way than good, you can easily see it.
there all all kinds of dangers in this world. we need to help each other out as much as possible. - if there is a soul or some kind of grander scheme of justice, then consider this advice selfdefense for the soul. because the evil and goodness are within all of us. we are free to act as we see fit.

j

 

[YoungMan]

I agree-martial arts techniques in themselves are not evil. It becomes a question of how these techniques are used. A martial arts technique is simply a part of your body doing a physical action that could conceivably hurt or kill another person.
Much like using a gun, practicing a martial art is itself not immoral or evil. All you are doing is thrusting a part of your body into the air.
Having said that, it is the instructor's responsibility to make sure that those who are learning from him/her learn to apply those techniques in a responsible manner, with respect for the pain and death they may potentially inflict on another human being.
If you have a student who is wantonly inflicting pain on other people because he wants to see if his technique works (and those people do exist), the techniques themselves are still not evil. It is our mindset that needs work, and the Instructor's job to ensure the student knows this is unacceptable.