Escalator or Gunting- Sat 1/08 1pm EST

[Dan Anderson]

Paul,

I agree with Tgace. What exactly is the unethical behaviour? Exact time, place, form, event? Outside of Kelly's allegations, I'd love to actually see, in print, what they are (without the usual "do your own research" yap Kelly would provide). And the source references they come from. Good research project for you, Paul (yeah - like you have that kind of free time ).

Andrew,

Hmmm. Good point about the O'Reilly. Kelly has been incredibly slanted in his blastings about Bram on his radio program. Yes, Bram wasn't there so he wasn't interrupted so I'll need to come up with a better example. Hey, Rush Limbaugh comes to mind. Has he interviewed anyone lately? If so, I'll look for another example. Actually Bram HAS been on his show in the past, when Kelly professed him as a friend, and if I can ever get a copy of that program, I may be back.

As usual this is turning into a food fight. Pretty volitile subject, I'd say.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - You all should drop this, go over to the Modern Arnis forum and buy my new book. :asian:

 

[Tgace]

IMO this thread appears designed to bring an issue from other forums into this one. The mentioned radio show apparently had this feud as a central issue. I dont know if you can discuss any of these points without the other. Lay the cards out on the table or lock it down.

 

[Cruentus]

OK insted of dancing around the issue, what is this unethical behavior? I for one am not familiar with the issue and as its already "out there" and central to this disagreement....if nobody has the **** to say it outright, some links would be appreciated.

To answer you Tom, I'll repeat what I said earlier...

Now, I am not going to argue these points or personal opinions here, nor will I provide mine on the matter here; my advice is that if one is curious about what has been circulating about Brams background, I say download the past shows of "On the Edge" that discuss these issues, and take a listen. And, to be fair, if one is still curious and feels the need to hear things from Mr. Franks view, perhaps post on Bram Franks Forum or e-mail Mr. Frank himself and inquire. Then one can get a few sides of the story, and one can make an educated judgement for oneself about the circumstance.

Some "On the Edge" shows to download would be recent shows with Mike Janich, James Keating, Bob Taylor (this last one), or Jot Singh. There are more shows, but I can't think of them offhand. In these shows, documentation to written sources is provided. If one has a question regarding the evidence from Bram's side, I suggest posting a question on his forum.

Sorry to be so vague. It has nothing to do with having "nutz" or not; it has everything to do with me not wanting to indulge in an arguement over the details of the issue. So, all I am willing to do is suggest the sources.

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

Sorry, you asked for links.

Kelly Wordens site has all his past radio shows downloadable:

www.kellyworden.com

Bram Frank has his forum linked to his site here:

http://www.cssdsc.com/

Hope that helps,

Paul

 

[Tgace]

thanks...im always looking for a good food fight.

 

[Cruentus]

Another link to Spyderco's site, so one can view the knife in question (Go about half way down the page:

http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/list.php?genre=knife&offset=21&per_page=10

 

[Tgace]

Still....this thread is like tap-dancing around the elephant in the room. Where can it possibly go??

 

[Cruentus]

What exactly is the unethical behaviour? Exact time, place, form, event? Outside of Kelly's allegations, I'd love to actually see, in print, what they are (without the usual "do your own research" yap Kelly would provide). And the source references they come from. Good research project for you, Paul (yeah - like you have that kind of free time ).

I am not even sure why I am responding to this one, but Dan, come friggin' on here. You've gotta know what the allegations are, they are about as plain as the English language on his show. They are not just Kelly's allegations either; there are comments made from a number of other respected members of the knife community, and within these comments are references to documentation regarding the issue. I have seen some, but not all of the actual documentation. I will not discuss this information on any forum.

If you or anyone wants to discuss the individual pieces of evidence then that is absolutely fine with me. Go ahead and discuss in a logical fashion while obeying the rules. I am not going to get involved in the discussion. But, I will not let anyone pretend that the evidence doesn't exist when that is simply not true, and it is listed plain as English on various shows

Final thought on this Dan: I am saying this as a friend. THINK about what your saying here. If you respect Bram as a friend, the last thing you want to do is ask or challenge me to dig up evidence and present them for a debate. As many of the posters here have seen and experienced, I am not well in the head. Once I get started on something, especially if it involves debating, I won't stop until the issue has been killed several times. For your own sakes and for Brams sake, I would rather not be in the business of digging up documented sources against the man or arguing over the details of this issue. Especially if this is something I truely do not want to do.

Paul

 

[Bester]

Wow. You guys really think it matters. Then again, at least you're not as anal as this analmouse drip over on the "Childrens Network" http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=537099

Hold on to your hats for what follows guys… I’m going to raise a few eyebrows now.

Kelly Worden is an apparently respected exponent of the Filipino Martial Arts who “maintains long term strong relationships” with other big name martial artists, and runs a prolific program in the Pacific Northwest. It is not his skills of his years of experience that is the issue here. The issue here is that he claims to have been the driving force behind the modern edged weapon renaissance when men like Leo Gaje and Dan Inosanto brought the Filipino blade to the forefront many years before. Kelly jumps up and down on his platform that he is the first and foremost knife authority, and everybody else besides Jim Keating is riding his coattails and copying his material. My question is: Whose material did he copy with his Renegade JKD, Connecting the Systems and Art with in Your Art approach? Hmmm…

Kelly was also “recognized” by one of the FMA groups in the Philippines as the Grandmaster of Natural Spirit Arnis, but has never set foot on Philippine soil, can’t pronounce many of the traditional Filipino terms properly (or the names of many of his Filipino friends) and has virtually no idea about the Filipino culture; martial or otherwise. It sounds to me like somebody greased a few palms... pay the fee and get the title. Still he has the nerve to say that his credentials are credible and everyone who might be in competition with him is a fraud.

Furthermore, Kelly has a habit of flaming, suspending and banning people from his World Modern Arnis Coalition forum and deleting their posts when he doesn’t like somebody has to say. I guess when he was a little boy, he would just take his ball and go home if the other kids didn’t play the right way... his way.

Don Rearic and Phil Elmore have both been featured guests on his radio show.

You will also find links to Sammy Franco, Ron Hood (of PhonyVeterans.com infamy) and everybody’s favorite Self Defense Forums at this site. I wonder how strong his long term relationships are with these two frauds.

The man has skills, but is a ******** artist just the same.

James Keating is a great exponent of the blade hands down. However, like Kelly Worden, he has personality issues. He is on record as saying that he and Kelly pioneered the modern edged weapon movement, and that everyone else is copying their material. Neither Keating nor Worden created the knife work of the FMA, but are both reluctant come out and say that, as they are the "innovators" that started it all . Here’s a rare quote from an interview at http://www.realfighting.com /1102/index.html

RF
I took Pekiti-tiersa years ago, I liked it; it's a very fast style, but it's got a lot of crap in it too.

Keating
Laughter...this is what I've done; I've taken Pekiti-tiersa and modified it, I agree with you, so you don't have to do a lot of the crap. I basically want the high-speed effectiveness and that's what we've got. So again in my opinion, as far as self-defense, close quarter, against any situation, the reverse grip is one of the best. But if we're talking about two men with knives squaring off amongst each other, oh hell no, get your knife out of reverse grip, get into regular grip, it is not a knife fighting method.

I think they mean Pekiti Tirsia…

Back in the early 90’s none of his advertising said that ComTech knife was diluted PTK. Who’s the rip-off artist now? Just who is copying whom without giving credit where it is due? He was never forthcoming as to were his material had come from other than his own “research”.

Have you guys ever gone to Keating’s web site? It makes Ki Sanctuary look almost normal.

Well… I could go on, but this has already gotten way too long.

It gets interesting from there. The arts are full of self-inflated egos. I heard a tale about Frank slicing up a few of his students on at least 1 occation because of using a live blade rather than a trainer. Big deal. **** happens. I'd say "Shut up and train", and let the children play in their little private pens with their little suck-up groopies, and let the rest of us get back to the bigger scope of things. I did some reading here and elsewhere and the great majority of those involved have enough 'grey' to make them all pretty much 'iffy', including many in this thread here.

Eh, Bah. Back to dealing with sheep diddlers in the study.

 

[Cruentus]

Well Bester,

I wouldn't consider "Bullshido" a reliable source for anything, nor am I sure your point in posting that.

It does, however, provide a good example of what "internet accusations with no basis" looks like. If one wants to observe what unfounded accusations and lame internet insults and flamewars look like, Bullshido is the place to go. That, ladies and gents, is not what we are facing here regarding Mr. Frank.

Paul

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Paul,

PM time.

Dan

 

[Bester]

Uh, I had a followup here. It poofed. Oh well.
Too many sokes and grandmasters and their fan clubs for my taste.

 

[Seig]

Sometime back, I posted a warning in the FMA section about continued pissing matches. I am now extending that warning to cover the entire board. This thread is locked.