EPAK and JKD

Are EPAK and JKD more similar than different?

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Doc

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The “Kenpo-Karate” & JKD Connection



Ed Parker’s creation, “Kenpo-Karate,” has a brother and a sister art. The “sister” is Jeet Kune Do (JKD). We’ll save the “brother” for another day. Kenpo-Karate and JKD are both training concepts, as opposed to styles, or even real systems of the martial arts. Although the Bruce Lee vehicle unlike the Ed Parker version was never designed to be commercial, Ed Parker had a considerable influenced in its creation and concept.

Bruce Lee spoke extensively with him about his (BruceÂ’s) own personal goals and dissatisfaction with his Wing Chun training (even though he hadnÂ’t really trained that long). He expressed a desire to learn as much as he could without the restraints imposed by any one discipline. Bruce became bored easily when he could not readily see benefit to what he was doing. Ed Parker argued this was pretty ambitious, but typical for a 23 year old. (I think we tend to forget Bruce was just a really talented kid.) Parker further expressed there must be variables to allow for the physical, emotional, and intellectual differences in students.

For Bruce this was of little concern. He didn’t really care about students or teaching. Bruce Lee was on a personal mission to enhance his own skills and his salability to become a movie star. His teaching was primarily to insure he had training partners and of course, to learn from other accomplished martial artists to get to his personal goals. When Lee moved to Southern California his school was not open or known to the general public. The local “insiders” knew where it was, but to get in you had to bring something special to the table. It was located about five minutes away from Grandmaster Ark Wong’s School in the Los Angeles Chinatown.

Ed Parker now realizing Lee was only interested in his own self-development, gave him some history making advice. Acknowledging Bruce’s obvious physical gifts, he suggested he should explore as much as possible from diverse teachers. Although Lee had already been doing this to a certain extent, Parker felt he should be introduced to the top guys, and of course Ed Parker knew them all. Bringing him together with notable martial artists like “Judo” Gene LaBell, Dan Inosanto and Sea Oh Choi to name a few, Ed Parker helped Bruce immensely with his martial arts. He advised Lee to study a variety of arts and take what he felt he could use. LaBell taught Bruce to grapple and became his stuntman in the “Green Hornet” TV show, while Choi was partially responsible for the awesome “Korean style” kicks Lee displayed on film. And of course, Dan Inosanto for teaching Bruce the many diverse weapons and for his Kenpo and Filipino Arts influence on Lee. Thus the seed to ultimately what became JKD was planted, but like motion based Kenpo-Karate, more a training concept than a style, and only a system within the confines of its own concept. His introduction by Ed Parker as well as to William Self the director of the popular Batman T.V. series, who was casting for the Green Hornet, ultimately got him into television and jump-started his movie career.

Ed ParkerÂ’s approach for his Kenpo-Karate vehicle was somewhat different, but not as different as you might think. He felt instructors needed to be well rounded to be of the greatest benefit to all of their students. As a teacher, your personal strengths and weaknesses should not be visited on your students. You never know at what a student may excel, even though you as a teacher may not. Kenpo-Karate is designed to be of maximum benefit to the singular individual, and only personal effectiveness is the primary goal. It was simple and ingenious on the part of both these men.

Students and followers of both however, misunderstood. Kenpo-Karate practitioners continue to argue about the “right way” to execute a technique when there is none. They engage in “Hypothetical Kenpo” and intellectualize with no real foundation or basics, while conjuring up complicated “what if” scenarios. So-called JKD people argued about how to do JKD as well, while most of its original students don’t really teach it. What has emerged is “JKD Concepts” which is probably more appropriate considering its conceptual nature. Further JKD is closer to a “street style of sparring” and generally gives no solutions to self-defense grappling scenarios, much like Kenpo-Karate. Also unlike Kenpo-Karate, it doesn’t deal with modern street weapons, or surprise attacks.

That is not to say Bruce did not possess the knowledge or the ability to deal with these scenarios. To the contrary, much like Ed Parker, Bruce kept a lot to himself. Instead he chose to explore mostly the “street sparring” aspect with the majority of his student sparring partners. Most were not even aware Bruce could grapple, or had joint manipulation skills until he displayed them on film much later.

The most obvious JKD Kenpo-Karate connection can be seen in Kenpo-Karate’s “Freestyle Formulas.” These were derived from certain “Offensive Techniques” planned but never written for Ed Parker’s American Kenpo. Once again watered down and presented as formulas, they were to educate and prod the Kenpo-Karate student into “flexible thought” when it came to sparring and competition. By using the Kenpo-Karate concepts of Re-arrangement, Prefixing, Inserting, Addition, and Deletion, in conjunction with an established “base” formula and footwork, these Freestyle Formulas followed the same conceptual design as the rest of His Kenpo-Karate.

Unfortunately however, most found this formulaic approach too complicated, and over the years, chose to ignore or abandon them altogether. Drafts of the last version of some the technique manuals Ed Parker was working on eliminated these formulas. Ed Parker created Kenpo-Karate to be conceptually and commercially viable out of necessity. He had to design it to be taught to the masses with maximum flexibility of thought and action. The “hard curriculum” he wanted to teach was not possible. Even though ultimately, it is only a small part of the whole of his “American Kenpo Knowledge,” Kenpo-Karate did have its own unique structure, and like JKD, only one real expert.

First, Ed Parker created a guide he called the “Web of Knowledge.” This was a spiraling ascending chart consisting of the “theme” of the individual assaults in a progressive attack variable pattern. It was designed to insure students considered specific situations in their training process, and virtually dictated self-defense techniques and there order of presentation, and formed the basis for Kenpo-Karate’s lesson plan. Student/teachers focused on “techniques” when the Web of Knowledge is the truth base. Although Parker insisted on individual flexibility on defense, he felt it was important to consider as many scenarios of attack as reasonably possible. Over time as the sociological climate changed, some of these scenarios have become outdated, while other new scenarios need to be considered.

Revolutionary at the time, written “technique manuals” were created as a companion second part of the lesson plan. These were to give students a generalized starting point of ideas from which to extrapolate their defensive strategies dictated by the Web of Knowledge, based on concepts taught by Mr. Parker. No mention should be made of the earlier writings without acknowledging Tom Kelley and Richard Planas. These gentlemen contributed tremendously, and understand the philosophy of the material better than most for obvious reasons. They followed in the footsteps of Chuck Sullivan who was essentially there from the beginning, supporting as well as creating with Ed Parker.

Coming in personal contact with the majority of his students infrequently, the need of a different approach is what brought about Kenpo-Karate. So Ed Parker began teaching, not so much a system but this Kenpo-Karate Lesson Plan he intended students to use as a general guide. The Web of Knowledge in conjunction with emerging concepts was supposed to be the center, with the technique manuals to provide ideas for a starting point for personal interpretations. Remember the primary objective was for the individual to defend himself with the information provided as quickly as possible.

Bur the problems here were many. For one Ed Parker was constantly evolving and growing. New ideas replaced old ones rapidly, usually too fast for his students. That leads us to the next problem. All of Kenpo-KarateÂ’s instructors were also its students themselves. Most were converts from other arts who were attempting to learn Ed ParkerÂ’s ever-changing approach, and teach it at the same time. This in conjunction with the inherent flexibility of Kenpo-Karate, created mass confusion from school to school, instructor to instructor. What Ed Parker told one group in the morning, might be completely different from an afternoon session with a different audience. This was made possible because the majority of the black belts were converts from other styles, bringing with them established skills and competency. Given the new flexible concepts, these black belts and the next generation or so florished.

Ed Parker knew the true sciences and more complex aspects of the whole of his “American Kenpo,” like traditional Chinese Arts, required very strictly taught basics and specific body mechanics to provide a solid long-term foundation. Additionally, even more specific continuing education under competent instruction would be absolutely necessary to move to true advanced levels. Like JKD, limited competent instructors hampered this. Like Bruce Lee, only Ed Parker was the expert of his art. He also knew it would be impossible to teach his American Kenpo as he envisioned it in the recesses of his mind.

Kenpo-Karate is essentially a motion-based approach designed as stated, to foster reasonable self-defense skills, in a relatively short period of time. To this end, Kenpo-Karate routinely attacks soft human tissue such as the throat, testicles, and eyes to insure effectiveness. It teaches the student to overwhelm an opponent with multiple rapid fire flailing strikes and kicks. Conceptually simple, but it can be extremely effective in striking situations against the unskilled. It is very ineffective however in “hands on” or “grappling” circumstances because of the absence of other knowledge. This is the reason many practitioners have decided to augment their skills with grappling disciplines. Most instructors in Kenpo-Karate teach students to turn “grabbing attacks” into “attempted grab attacks.” Once grabbed, hugged, choked etc. they are hard pressed to teach students how to extricate themselves. In essence Kenpo-Karate is a more sophisticated approach to many self-defense courses successfully taught in schools and colleges throughout the country. This is pure marketing genius on the part of Ed Parker.

As a limited layperson striking art however, this is where the genius of the man really showed. Because this creation is based on an “Alphabetical and Numerical Re-arrangement Concept,” its variations are literally infinite. Therefore a student may study this Kenpo-Karate facet of American Kenpo on a superficial level, or if he/she chooses, explore its interpretations of motion endlessly into old age. This version is known for its “journey” approach, and is the method Parker chose to proliferate. It is extremely flexible and promotes personal development and style over and above structure. Kenpo-Karate is about 10% structure, and 90% personal interpretation. Other aspects of Ed Parker’s American Kenpo is actually the reverse, and more like the traditional Chinese disciplines, with 90% very rigid structure, and 10% of tailored flexibility

The reason is simple. Kenpo-Karate is completely dominated by what Ed Parker called the Re-arrangement and Tailoring Concepts of Motion. This is its strength and its weakness. Remember Ed Parker said, “Tailored by self means limited by self.” He also adopted a saying from science. “General knowledge always produces general results.” Although Kenpo-Karate may be studied infinitely, and produce very positive results, there is specific knowledge not found within its structure. No matter how long you re-arrange and explore its motions and structure, this knowledge cannot be found. Consider this reality. There is no physical or mental discipline in existence, where you may extrapolate the higher echelons by re-arranging it, or tailoring it to your own personal preferences.

Your base of knowledge must be very specific and well defined before you attempt to build on it and move upward. You cannot do this with generalities. You cannot build a skyscraper’s first floor to your own whims. The foundation has to be rock solid and the physics of building construction will dictate its architecture in a manner you may not personally like. Kenpo-Karate’s popularity in part, comes from the lack of strict structure found in other arts, as well as its relatively rapid progress through its ranks. But the trade off is a hard foundation that is needed to sustain and create the base for more advanced development and internal energy. This is the reason why there are so many young “masters” of Kenpo-Karate. All that is really required is you “master” your own circumstances with regard to its structure.

As an entity it has no real scientific principles and is virtually conceptually driven. At its best it is a “pseudo-science,” and according to Ed Parker himself, created by a process called “Comparative Analysis.” The so-called “principles” are actually simple rules whose validity is constrained by its conceptual context. The “rules” may be absolute, but only as they pertain to the individual using it at the time. That is, “Your rule may not be mine if it doesn’t work for me, no matter how well it works for you.” Students are encouraged to “find another way to make it work,” over and above “continuing to work on the move to perfection.”

Loyal practitioners truly want to believe itÂ’s hard science, but it isnÂ’t. It does however borrow ideas from science. But even then, very little is actually transportable. What some may call principles, outside of the context of Kenpo-Karate would have no meaning. The thought you could train in something for a few years, performing a group of techniques tailored to your personal preferences, and then take your experience and work your way to mastership is totally illogical. You may get to higher levels, but only within the constraints of the limited concept. There are masters of Kenpo-Karate, but that doesnÂ’t mean they are masters of other aspects or higher levels of Ed ParkerÂ’s American Kenpo.

Intelligent teachers and practitioners have realized something is missing from Kenpo-Karate. Many like Bob White years ago, borrowed the sport concept of cross training. Some are flocking in large numbers to grappling and manipulation disciplines. Others are quietly talking about the techniques they wouldn’t use or the ones that “don’t work.” Others still, are really struggling to make sense of what they have been told and taught by teachers with a limited effective understanding of the curriculum.

Although the idea of seeking knowledge from any source is commendable, some have even sought acupuncture charts in an attempt to “reverse engineer” techniques, and gain knowledge of nerve locations in combat scenarios. They are unaware of how much knowledge is missing and cannot be found in that methodology. Kenpo-Karate doesn’t provide the structure for such a process. Also acupuncture charts are much like Ed Parker’s technique Manuals. They are a guide, and are not gospel. Especially when used in an active martial environment.

Others simply point the finger at the obvious deficiencies and abandon Kenpo-Karate altogether. This is much easier than looking inward and seeing the same deficient circumstances in oneself or ones teacher. You’ll find ex-Kenpo students in abundance in Russian, Filipino, and other eclectic arts. Some don’t mind being a beginner somewhere else as long as they keep their ranks in Kenpo. I have always found it curious that many speak as if what they know is all Ed Parker knew. They routinely suggest they pretty much “know” the material, and now are on the Bruce Lee journey sampling other arts. They do not seem to leave room for the possibility that Ed Parker like Bruce Lee was ahead of his students, and might have known things he didn’t teach them.

One of the things that kept Mr. Parker held in such high esteem was what students felt of his physical skill. No one seemed capable of physically duplicating what he did. Not understanding many thought the answer was simply to hit harder. As an example, many elements from the Chinese Sciences like the pak-sao, or “slapping checks” are evident in all of even his early movements recorded on film and tape. Yet, he never taught or wrote about them. Some have attempted to mimic him; not realizing “slapping” yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time can have devastating consequences in real combat. Other have simply followed the technique manuals and used Ed Parker’s written substitute, “positional check.”

He also made extensive use of nerve strikes and pressure points in all he did, but never talked about these things either after including nerve charts in his first book on Kenpo in 1961. He often told a story he called “The Menu of Death” that illustrated he had a knowledge of these things. Interestingly students laughed at the punch line but no one ever asked him the implications of the story. Still others attempted to duplicate Ed Parker’s awesome abilities by concentrating on speed, hitting students extremely hard to get the desired effect. Although effective, it is Neanderthal in comparison.

Students of American Kenpo have to ask themselves if Ed Parker’s “Infinite Insights” books truly represents the sum of his knowledge as some have claimed. Ed Parker himself stated in the second volume of that series, that the material therein was from the early seventies, and it took him to the eighties to organize it. I have video of Ed Parker doing all of the techniques from the late sixties and early seventies, and they are essentially unchanged from what most are doing in a new millennium, over forty years later. Curious since that is not what Ed Parker was doing, or how he moved at the time he passed in 1990. “Traditional Kenpo” which many claim to perpetuate, by Mr. Parker’s own standards is an oxymoron. There is no such thing, just those who have stopped learning and educating themselves.
 
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cdhall

cdhall

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Have I said that before?
:)
Dr. Chapel, that was outstanding. I want to thank you for supporting my question with such a thoughtful and informative answer.

I have some questions about what you said, but I'll email you. That was a very thorough treatment of my topic and I am greatful that you took the time to post it.

This is an excellent forum. I don't know how, for example that I would otherwise have been able to or even thought to go out to California and ask you this personally. The fact is, I may never have asked you even if we'd met. Three cheers for the web!

Thank you, sir.
:asian:
 

Michael Billings

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CD,

As you know, the space where my school is now is shared by a JKD instructor, Ray Parra. Ray has been a student of Danny Inosanto for over 30 years and he was a black belt prior to that.

I cannot provide the perspective Dr. Chapel can, nor do I want to bring it over into the SL-4 or "pressure point" or "acupuncture point" discussion. What my personal observation is, that as Dr. Chapel said, it may be a "sister art."

When potential students ask me the difference between the two systems, I encourage them to take one of my classes for free and that Ray will do the same. Then they can decide for themselves. It appears that in Kenpo we study an enormous amount of "material", with the end result being a gaseous spontaineous variable response to an attack. (I am cutting to the core here and leaving oodles and oodles out) The JKD as practiced by Ray and Dan teaches a flow first, from that, individual response patterns, or techniques can be pulled out. With Kenpo and JKD practitioner ending in a similar place you get to by a different journey.

This is very simplistic comparison of course, and generous on my behalf, but usually sufficient for a beginning student trying to find a home. I enjoy the logic of Silat, the flow of Escrima, the aggressiveness of Boxing or Thai Kickboxing ... even if it is not for me. My classes are classes ... Ray's are individual workouts by pairs of training partners. Little history, tradition, or values are shared with his beginning students. Whereas in Kenpo the responsibility for what you are learning is stressed from the beginning. JKD is increadable aerobic workout for the entire class time and his guys & gals are tough and can fight. But they do not have the tools to articulate what they are doing consistantly. Ray does, but he would have to be asked.

Interesting workout. If you really want to know the difference come to one of Ray's classes. 6:30 for beginners and 7:30 for advanced on Monday or Wednesday evenings.

-Michael
UKS-Texas
 
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cdhall

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Thank you sir. I'll probably email you. JKD, EPAK and BJJ. I don't think you are missing anything. :)
:asian:
 
T

TIGER DRAGON FIGHT

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the two styles are similar by there quickness of hands and practicallity of leg strikes but differant by there classical upbringing.:jedi1:
 
M

Mark Weiser

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With the current availablity of Distance Learning you can sign up with at least three Kenpo Teachers that teach Ed Parker Kenpo Karate.

Al Tracy
Larry Tatum
Kevin Lamkin

You buy the videos and train do a tape send it in and get corrected on any problems and then you maybe able to obtain recongized Rank.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser
 
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Rainman

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Mark Weiser said:
With the current availablity of Distance Learning you can sign up with at least three Kenpo Teachers that teach Ed Parker Kenpo Karate.

Al Tracy
Larry Tatum
Kevin Lamkin

You buy the videos and train do a tape send it in and get corrected on any problems and then you maybe able to obtain recongized Rank.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

None of these people teach Ed Parkers Kenpo, Ed Parker taught Ed Parkers Kenpo and during the 80's the term American Kenpo was coined and put into the infinite insights to differentiate his system from the others. After EP passed it was not his system but everyones because he is not here to set any type of standard.

Distance learning is fictional- you cannot learn any art by video correspondance and receive the rank of black belt- this is just flat out wrong.
 

Brother John

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eternalwhitebelt said:
actually they do have basics. think about it. you can't have drills without any basics. most people who talk about jkd have never truely studied it. jkd is not the base art, jun fan is. most people don't know this. what you see as jkd is the personal expression of a person's basics.
From my understanding, Jun Fan is not an integral part of Jeet Kune Do. True, I've not studied in a school that's taught either one...so there's your grain of salt. But Jun Fan Gung-fu is the assimilated basics that Mr. Lee favored from the arts he studied... whereas JKD is the philosophical approach to studying/being a martial artist. Jun Fan Gung-fu varies widely from school to school to the point it can't even be said to be an art (overall, though w/in each school it's an art unto its' self...so to speak). But JKD can be a way embraced by any martial artist.

Your Brother
John
 

Brother John

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Doc said:
The “Kenpo-Karate” & JKD Connection
He often told a story he called “The Menu of Death” that illustrated he had a knowledge of these things. Interestingly students laughed at the punch line but no one ever asked him the implications of the story.


PLEASE tell us this "The Menu of Death" story.
Please.

:asian:

Your Brother
John
 
B

Blacktiger

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I'm new here and thought I would put in my two cents. I am fairly new to Jun Fan but I do actually study it. We work very hard on the basics of striking and movement and my instructor is very critical on my strikes proper alignment and if my footwork is done properly. The actual concepts of JKD to my understanding is actual combat is alive and always changing, I think Lee wanted us to concentrate on the tools of combat (the basics) more than set patterns. My point is, you train a technique against a straight punch over and over again till its second nature and then you try it on a street brawler who maybe isn't a trained fighter and that punch he throws comes in at an off angle, will it still work? Jun Fan trains the tools and the footwork but not the setness so that you can always adapt and change to the aliveness of combat. JKD has some of the best drill I have ever seen and they see that as more productive training than learning set form. as far as a complete art most JKD schools also incorporate Kali and bjj into the curiculum, which would cover all ranges of combat (kicking,punching,trapping,grappling,& weapons trainging). sorry for misspellings and my lengthy rambling.
 
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Mark Weiser

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Rainman said:
None of these people teach Ed Parkers Kenpo, Ed Parker taught Ed Parkers Kenpo and during the 80's the term American Kenpo was coined and put into the infinite insights to differentiate his system from the others. After EP passed it was not his system but everyones because he is not here to set any type of standard.

Distance learning is fictional- you cannot learn any art by video correspondance and receive the rank of black belt- this is just flat out wrong.
Well I will have to disagree with you on several points lol. First these Gentlemen are First Generation Blackbelts under SGM Parker and if anyone should know and teach EPAK would be these Instructors.

Additionally if Distance Learning is wrong then why do it in the first place since this would be aganist the Philosophy of Kenpo to be true to the art. Then you have the right to wear the Blackbelt issued from these Instructors and you are just as welcomed as any student that came to the studio in person. Distance Training and Online Video Streaming for lessons is a reality we as Kenpoist much face. We have to evolve with the trends and technology that is available for teaching Kenpo to others. I would bet any money SGM Parker would right now be offering Kenpo Videos and or Live Data Stream on his website for others if he was still with us today. It is Possible with new Technology to have live Video Conferencing with a Student and Instructor Online with a good Computer and a Video Camera and a ISP. This will be the new wave of Teaching One to One over a great distance.

We must reach out to the computer savy generation that is coming behind us and keep up with them in order to spread the Art of Kenpo.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser
 
R

Rainman

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Mark Weiser said:
Well I will have to disagree with you on several points lol. First these Gentlemen are First Generation Blackbelts under SGM Parker and if anyone should know and teach EPAK would be these Instructors.

Additionally if Distance Learning is wrong then why do it in the first place since this would be aganist the Philosophy of Kenpo to be true to the art. Then you have the right to wear the Blackbelt issued from these Instructors and you are just as welcomed as any student that came to the studio in person. Distance Training and Online Video Streaming for lessons is a reality we as Kenpoist much face. We have to evolve with the trends and technology that is available for teaching Kenpo to others. I would bet any money SGM Parker would right now be offering Kenpo Videos and or Live Data Stream on his website for others if he was still with us today. It is Possible with new Technology to have live Video Conferencing with a Student and Instructor Online with a good Computer and a Video Camera and a ISP. This will be the new wave of Teaching One to One over a great distance.

We must reach out to the computer savy generation that is coming behind us and keep up with them in order to spread the Art of Kenpo.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

I will agree it is not useless but will stand firm on the fact it cannot replace daily instruction on the mat... Any information is good but blackbelt to me is a serious achievement. It is just not a valid substitute (enhancement too yes) but not in place of personal instruction and interaction on the mat- nothing is. To see and hear does not replace to feel. The nuances are lost and those are such an important factor of AK and any art with hugs, holds, locks and chokes.

:asian:
 

Brother John

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Mark Weiser said:
Well I will have to disagree with you on several points lol. First these Gentlemen are First Generation Blackbelts under SGM Parker and if anyone should know and teach EPAK would be these Instructors.

Additionally if Distance Learning is wrong then why do it in the first place since this would be aganist the Philosophy of Kenpo to be true to the art.

Hey Mark, my fellow Kansan Kenpoist.

I must disagree with you here, but I'll explain why.
#1: the fact that these people studied with SGM Parker doesn't mean that they DO Ed Parker Kenpo. First generation or not. For instance, the curriculum espoused by Mr. Tracy is not Parker Kenpo. It is different. The curriculum that Chuck Sullivan and Vic (can't recall his last name)... is Not Ed Parker Kenpo. It is very different. Kenpo? Yes. EPAK? No.
To my understanding though, Mr. Tattum does teach EPAK. Perhaps he and Mr. Parker had a falling out...so I've heard, and he did break away from the IKKA and found the LTKKA...but the curriculum is that which was taught to him by Mr. Parker (to my limited knowledge).

#2: The fact that some promote video teaching and video promotion does NOT mean that it is right to do. It is, however, fiscally enticing. They are raking in tha bread hand over fist!!!!! I met a guy who got the videos, sent in the checks, sent in the videos and went from white TO BLACK BELT in only 4 MONTHS!!! I wish I was exagerating. I've met others who went through the same program (created by an EPAK 1st gen) who pretty much had the same experience....and came out with exeedingly low quality of abilities. The fact that they do it attests more to their drive for $$$$$$$$ than to any thing having to do with quality.
Now: can someone learn something from videos?
I think so. But if the majority of your experience is as a video student...the quality CAN'T be there. I doubt it Very strongly. Now if you take a student who's brown or above in a similar art and let them try to learn from the videos... they'll undoubtedly have a better experience. But learning a martial art by video and testing by video would be about as useful as taking dance lessons over the phone.

Hope I've not stepped on too many toes.
Your Brother
John
 
M

Mark Weiser

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Okay Gentlemen:

I will concede that point. However there are some more circumstances that make Distance Learning a viable way to learn MA( your entitled to an opinion just as I do).

Lets say your in a rual area where there are no Kenpo Schools however you have the Internet and you come across a website that has samples of Kenpo online. You see those video Samples and you go wow! I got to learn that.

The Problem is in some cities as some of you know that are in the Midwest ( especially those who live in Kansas should know LOL!) that you may never see a martial arts class. You may see TKD lets say in about a half hour drive or an hour drive from your home. Throw in work and family issues and you can see that this could be a benefit too those that wish or yearn to learn a Martial Art. I agree having an Instructor present is required to learn the finer points.

The only requirement I can see is this if Distance Learning is not viable then those schools whom report many Blackbelts should make an effort to place a Blackbelt in a Location where there has been numerous inquires about that Art.

There are and is many "Kenpo" Schools that have tapes available for a low price for under $100 for the wholes system of Kenpo while some have the whole Kenpo system nearly $2000 lol.

The only thing that matters is learning a Martial Art with your whole heart. You can even make it a requirement to come to the Studio for a week every quarter to learn. That is every 3 months just FYI lol.

I for one was introduced to Kenpo thur the IKCA and have been learning ever since that day soaking up as much Kenpo info as possible. I even have a workout area in my home to learn new material so I can pass it along to the students.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

P.S.
I was wondering if anyone has meet a Distance Trained Blackbelt in Kenpo and how did they fare?
 

Blindside

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I was wondering if anyone has meet a Distance Trained Blackbelt in Kenpo and how did they fare?

I have, actually I have met a number of them, though several were students UNDER an instructor who was distance trained. I met most of these guys in a tournament setting, so I got to see forms, self-defense, and some sparring. There was a number of them, about 4-5 first degrees that were competing. It is fair to say they got chewed up and spit out, I don't think any of them placed, they also didn't return the next year. But that was one school, so maybe the instructor was bad. (Yes it was a tournament, no it wasn't "the street" but since they are supposed to be distance trained you would think their forms and SD would look good.)

I have seen others, and it has been a pretty mixed bag, but on the whole my impression was poor, and is hardly a glowing review of distance training. Martial arts and martial sports require contact, remember "to feel to to believe," and I am skeptical about the ability of distance learning to convey that.

Lamont
 

Gentle Fist

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Nothing can replace a teacher in the flesh. I realize some people aren't as fortunate to have a school nearby, but getting a Shodan over the internet is just wrong. One should have to at least test for rank.
 
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Rainman

Guest
I was wondering if anyone has meet a Distance Trained Blackbelt in Kenpo and how did they fare?

Yes an IKCA black belt. Very easy to dominate. No understanding of concepts and principles. The movement on his part was decent enough but the application was nonexistant.
 
M

Mark Weiser

Guest
That is exactly why I am planning road trips every three months to visit my Instructor for a week at a time. He the Instructor has already agreed to this.

I have the DVD's and Tapes however to be face to face with an Instructor is paramount. I agree with you guys I am not saying all Distance Learning is bad. However I agree you should test in person at least. Plan your vacation around the test go for a week or two weeks for a "crash" course if I may use that term.

I for one am looking forward to the Lessons lol.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser
 

Brother John

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Mark Weiser said:
That is exactly why I am planning road trips every three months to visit my Instructor for a week at a time. He the Instructor has already agreed to this.

I have the DVD's and Tapes however to be face to face with an Instructor is paramount. I agree with you guys I am not saying all Distance Learning is bad. However I agree you should test in person at least. Plan your vacation around the test go for a week or two weeks for a "crash" course if I may use that term.

I for one am looking forward to the Lessons lol.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

Hey Mark-
thanks for taking my criticisms in stride.
I'm glad you are able to get to your instructor's to study some! I know exactly where you are coming from. My instructor is an eight hour drive from my home. (He's in Denver, I'm in Wichita.. :rolleyes: :idunno: ) We do what we can. My first instructor was here in Wichita, got me up through Brown. Now I've been with my new instructor for about 2 years now. Slow going, but WELL worth it. I've got my students and they keep me rollin, but I live for those times I can spend a few days with my teacher! Nothin beats it.

Hey, I know we do different 'blends' of Kenpo. Mine comes from the Paul Mills (AKKI) lineage... yours through Chuck Sullivan's... but if you ever need a workout partner to help prepare for a test or whatnot; drop me an e-mail.
[email protected]
I'd love to hang out with a fellow Kenpoist in Oz.

Your Brother
John
 
M

Mark Weiser

Guest
Hey I appreciate the Offer. Where are you located at that is your School. My Wife and I used to live in Wichita for about 3 years. I was a Reserve Deputy Sheriff there with Sedgwick County.

My Introduction to Kenpo was with IKCA but I am venturing out and looking for more Kenpo Instruction. That is why I am studying with James Ibaro and Trevor Haines currently.

When my family and I go down to visit her family I could drop in and train a little with ya that would be cool.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser
 

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