OP
Elfan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #21
Perhaps the most fun I have had in the past 6 mounths has been a seminar where we smacked each other with pbc pipes covered in duct tape. Boy was I bruised after that one.
OP
MartialArtsChic
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #22
Hmmm, I know this is an oldey but I'll put my 2 cents in anyway.
I don't feel anything with the jointlocks unless they're taken to the breaking point and then I only tap because I know its at the breaking point. It's not painful at all.
I start cracking up laughing or smiling when my pressure points are hit. They take that as a tap out and that they're doing it right.
MartialArtsChic
I don't feel anything with the jointlocks unless they're taken to the breaking point and then I only tap because I know its at the breaking point. It's not painful at all.
I start cracking up laughing or smiling when my pressure points are hit. They take that as a tap out and that they're doing it right.
MartialArtsChic
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
After reading this thread, I can only say:
"BLACK LEATHER DOBOKS FOR EVERYONE!!!"
So much for vanilla martial arts, eh?
Regards,
Steve Scott
"BLACK LEATHER DOBOKS FOR EVERYONE!!!"
So much for vanilla martial arts, eh?
Regards,
Steve Scott
Chris from CT
Purple Belt
The thing people forget about joint locking is that "pain is just a bonus." In the most basic sense, what we are doing is taking the joint and moving it to the end of its range of motion. Thus making the joint immobile. This is achieved because the strength of an appendage is decreased when it is at the end of its range of motion.
To take that a step further a practitioner would not just want to lock that single joint but more joints along the "skeletal chain." With the addition of body manipulation, a practitioner achieves off balancing and locking up of the attacker, which creates a type of "Skeletal Freezing" similar to what is seen in Kosho Ryu Kempo. This can render a continuing attack ineffective when done properly.
In addition to the above, many women seem to have greater ranges of motion with their joints. I think the average elbow can move about 145 degrees where as many women can hyperextend their arm past that.
So bottom line is if the person is locked up and you can't get hurt (pain or no pain on the attacker's end) then it's a good joint lock.
Take care
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Chris,
I agree with that to a point...
I see the lack of pain being an opportunity for the individual to slip the lock, though. There are some that simply provide too many "outs" as it were. If the pain isn't there, the opponent can go out the back door.
But on reflection, I see a few locks where your principle would apply.
Steve
I agree with that to a point...
I see the lack of pain being an opportunity for the individual to slip the lock, though. There are some that simply provide too many "outs" as it were. If the pain isn't there, the opponent can go out the back door.
But on reflection, I see a few locks where your principle would apply.
Steve
Chris from CT
Purple Belt
Oh, this was a tough one to post. I got bumped off three times trying to do it. I loved the original post but unfortunately that got deleted. very disappointing.
Ok here goes...
From my experience, pain compliance cannot be the main objective when applying and securing a joint lock. You will hear many Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) say that pain compliance did not work on some subjects even when applied properly. This is too big a variable!
Using the come-along joint lock of the "gooseneck," that so many LEOs use, let's see how we can make the technique work without having pain compliance.
Let's set the stage...
Lock: "standard gooseneck"
Locked side: Right
Free hand: Left
The opponent is feeling some pain but is not compliant and is resisting.
When applying this lock we need to secure the opponent's elbow keeping it from popping out while maintaining the wrist hyperflexed and making sure the opponent's forearm is neither too vertical nor horizontal.
Here is an option...
With the above in action, take a small step back while lowering your center of gravity. This puts you in a position of being balanced and your opponent off-balanced. (at this time, the opponent is slightly arching backwards or forwards with their knees bent) Feel free at any point to drop them like a bad habit (hard!)
or escort them where necessary. Having your opponent off-balanced reduces the power and ability to escape.What about the other incoming hand?
With the off-balancing mentioned above, the opponent will have little power to cause damage if the left hand actually made it to you.
Now using that "skeletal freezing" theory, (for lack of a better phrase) by not allowing the opponent's right shoulder to move backwards (using the front of your left shoulder or upper bicept to the back of the opponents right shoulder or upper tricept) you are stopping the left shoulder from moving forward which negates the incoming left punch.
Remember that in order to punch effectively the shoulders move opposite to each other and also that you are on the opposite side of the opponent's body so the left hand has to move even further to make it to you.
In my humble opinion, the need for pain to make a joint lock work is over rated. Securing the appendage is the primary goal, which can be overlooked for the ease of causing pain over off-balancing and body manipulation. These principles are the foundation of what makes Hapkido, Hapkido. In the style of Hapkido that I train in, we train with a lot of pain, but as I said before that is just a big bonus. We cannot always rely on a person's pain threshold, but as long as a person has a body, some appendages and a head on top (or up their behind), these principles can be counted on.
Take care :asian:
God, I hope this one goes through! The first one was so much better.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Makes sense, Chris...and was very well written, in spite of the other one being a better version.
I teach locking from the perspective of very little pain compliance in any case. Our goal is to destroy the joint. I'll point out from time to time when pain compliance (and henceforth, skeletal locking) might work...but usually its as a bone or joint break.
Once, however, I taught the gooseneck you described to a Catholic priest. He used it about three months later and to good effect, assisting a female LEO in subjugating a suspect that was hiding out on the grounds of the Church. I now call it my "Catholic Priest Hold".
Again...good description. You ought to write a book. I'd buy it.
Regards,
Steve
I teach locking from the perspective of very little pain compliance in any case. Our goal is to destroy the joint. I'll point out from time to time when pain compliance (and henceforth, skeletal locking) might work...but usually its as a bone or joint break.
Once, however, I taught the gooseneck you described to a Catholic priest. He used it about three months later and to good effect, assisting a female LEO in subjugating a suspect that was hiding out on the grounds of the Church. I now call it my "Catholic Priest Hold".
Again...good description. You ought to write a book. I'd buy it.
Regards,
Steve
Chris from CT
Purple Belt
That's awsome!!! :rofl:
Thanks Steve. You're way too kind.
OP
INDIANAJONZ
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #29
I wouldn't teach any joint locks to a C.P. That would leave the A.B.'s defenseless. "NO Father O'Malley. Noooooo." Muahahaha
Do you destroy a lot of joints? In your class?
I'm sure that would make for high drop out rate.
I agree with Chris. Pain no necessary. Break possible.
:shrug:
Do you destroy a lot of joints? In your class?
I'm sure that would make for high drop out rate.
I agree with Chris. Pain no necessary. Break possible.
:shrug:
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Nope, we don't destroy any joints...in fact, nobody has been injured yet from a joint lock. Well, ME...but it wasn't in Hapkido.
When I say we teach 'em that way...we certainly don't practice with that intensity. Its like an eye gouge...you conceptualize it. If you actualize it, you get to practice only twice, and then your partner is done for the day.
Regards,
Steve
When I say we teach 'em that way...we certainly don't practice with that intensity. Its like an eye gouge...you conceptualize it. If you actualize it, you get to practice only twice, and then your partner is done for the day.
Regards,
Steve
Pain is one the most educational tools that the MAist and MA instructor can have at their disposal.
When I was a young boy I had a Scoutmaster who taught us what a rifle could do by having us shoot gallon jugs filled with water dyed red. The impact that left is quite memorable. You learn respect for your weapon and it's capabilities as well as for living things. Don't take the shot unless it's necessary was the lesson learned.
Too often I have seen young kids fresh from their first BJJ class or TKD class rush to demostrate what they learned on their friends. Usually, someone gets hurt. I've also seen classes where the new student is exposed to what pain is inflicted when a joint lock for example is applied. The student learns through feeling. Again the point is made don't inflict it unless it's necessary. I've also seen a well applied joint lock take the vinegar and ego out of many adolescents and adults at their first MA class as well.
I enjoy the pain as well, I learn from it.
andy
When I was a young boy I had a Scoutmaster who taught us what a rifle could do by having us shoot gallon jugs filled with water dyed red. The impact that left is quite memorable. You learn respect for your weapon and it's capabilities as well as for living things. Don't take the shot unless it's necessary was the lesson learned.
Too often I have seen young kids fresh from their first BJJ class or TKD class rush to demostrate what they learned on their friends. Usually, someone gets hurt. I've also seen classes where the new student is exposed to what pain is inflicted when a joint lock for example is applied. The student learns through feeling. Again the point is made don't inflict it unless it's necessary. I've also seen a well applied joint lock take the vinegar and ego out of many adolescents and adults at their first MA class as well.
I enjoy the pain as well, I learn from it.
andy
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Folks:
I don't want to rain on anyones' parade. If hurting people puts lead in yer pencil who am I to tell you different? However I think its important to remember that pain-compliance is only a tool, and one of many tools at that. I think I can safely say that I have sufficient experience to inflict significant pain on just about anyone I work with, but the use of pain is expected to be used in conjunction with many other aspects of execution. Along these lines it is also quite possible to routinely strain, sprain and fracture bones and joints as well. Many Hapkido techniques actually started out as such dire methods for surviving by debilitating your opponent. Things have lightened up quite a bit since the days of old when such nastiness was necessary. Now we use pain-compliance rather than fractures.
All the same, I am wondering as I read some of the posts if what folks may be enjoying is not so much the pain but the momentary feeling of power and dominance that comes from applying a submission hold such that your partner is completely under your control. This may sound like a bit of a stretch but if you exhibited that sort of behavior anywhere but in your class wouldn't most observers simply label you a bully rather than a MA student? Just a thought.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I don't want to rain on anyones' parade. If hurting people puts lead in yer pencil who am I to tell you different? However I think its important to remember that pain-compliance is only a tool, and one of many tools at that. I think I can safely say that I have sufficient experience to inflict significant pain on just about anyone I work with, but the use of pain is expected to be used in conjunction with many other aspects of execution. Along these lines it is also quite possible to routinely strain, sprain and fracture bones and joints as well. Many Hapkido techniques actually started out as such dire methods for surviving by debilitating your opponent. Things have lightened up quite a bit since the days of old when such nastiness was necessary. Now we use pain-compliance rather than fractures.
All the same, I am wondering as I read some of the posts if what folks may be enjoying is not so much the pain but the momentary feeling of power and dominance that comes from applying a submission hold such that your partner is completely under your control. This may sound like a bit of a stretch but if you exhibited that sort of behavior anywhere but in your class wouldn't most observers simply label you a bully rather than a MA student? Just a thought.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
The original post talked about RECEIVING the pain, not applying it.
Looking over this thread, I fail to see where people advocate hurting anybody in class to the point of injury. As to my post(s), yeah...if I use this in self defense, it is very likely that I'm going to hurt the individual by snapping the joint.
This assumes the disparity of size and force is in his favor, and I have no other options.
I'd suggest you read the thread, rather than reading between the lines of it.
Regards,
Steve
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Steve:
"......I'd suggest you read the thread, rather than reading between the lines of it....."
I know what you are saying and I agree. I think the point I was working to make was the general role of pain as experienced in KMA whether receiving or inflicting. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
"......I'd suggest you read the thread, rather than reading between the lines of it....."
I know what you are saying and I agree. I think the point I was working to make was the general role of pain as experienced in KMA whether receiving or inflicting. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
But earlier you posted this....
I fail to see the connection between receiving pain and this second paragraph directly above. People stated here they enjoyed the pain of receiving a lock (which is, I confess, a little odd)...but you talk of a power trip coming from applying a technique. How does a person gain power from receiving?
What am I missing here?
Steve
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Steve:
".......I fail to see the connection between receiving pain and this second paragraph directly above. People stated here they enjoyed the pain of receiving a lock (which is, I confess, a little odd)...but you talk of a power trip coming from applying a technique. How does a person gain power from receiving?....."
My thought on this comes from two places.
The first place is that pain, in and of itself, is not an end in itself, nor, in my estimation, even a sign that ones' technique is particularly well executed. Pain is part and parcel of a larger constellation of influences that contribute to the effective use of ones' body. Certainly pain might get the greatest attention due to its impact on the neuro-muscular system, but it is no more important than such things as un-balancing, un-timing, misdirection and so forth.
The second place is a kind of cautionary comment such that the give and take of pain might easily become a give and take of simple dominance. I routinely have to caution beginning students not to find themselves going down this path as it almost invariably becomes a slippery slope in which the level of discomfort grows as partners trade back and forth. The true problem in this is that with time the person receiving must become defensive and pre-occupied with caring for themselves to prevent injury and trust in the consideration of ones' partner may diminish. In such cases learning is impeded or may even stop as paired work becomes contensious.
I suppose that the human animal will always find enjoyment in exotic places. The are cases of people who are entertained by train wrecks, fires, and the nightmare of WW II concentration camp experiences. My comments were not a judgement of those who find enjoyment in feeling the sting of training. Rather I was observing the role of pain from what I thought might be a more moderate view. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
".......I fail to see the connection between receiving pain and this second paragraph directly above. People stated here they enjoyed the pain of receiving a lock (which is, I confess, a little odd)...but you talk of a power trip coming from applying a technique. How does a person gain power from receiving?....."
My thought on this comes from two places.
The first place is that pain, in and of itself, is not an end in itself, nor, in my estimation, even a sign that ones' technique is particularly well executed. Pain is part and parcel of a larger constellation of influences that contribute to the effective use of ones' body. Certainly pain might get the greatest attention due to its impact on the neuro-muscular system, but it is no more important than such things as un-balancing, un-timing, misdirection and so forth.
The second place is a kind of cautionary comment such that the give and take of pain might easily become a give and take of simple dominance. I routinely have to caution beginning students not to find themselves going down this path as it almost invariably becomes a slippery slope in which the level of discomfort grows as partners trade back and forth. The true problem in this is that with time the person receiving must become defensive and pre-occupied with caring for themselves to prevent injury and trust in the consideration of ones' partner may diminish. In such cases learning is impeded or may even stop as paired work becomes contensious.
I suppose that the human animal will always find enjoyment in exotic places. The are cases of people who are entertained by train wrecks, fires, and the nightmare of WW II concentration camp experiences. My comments were not a judgement of those who find enjoyment in feeling the sting of training. Rather I was observing the role of pain from what I thought might be a more moderate view. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Chris from CT
Purple Belt
This thread was originally about "receiving pain" until I responded to MartialArtsChic's post of not feeling pain in jointlocks.
My response (which probably could have been worded better) was to say, that's ok even though she may not have felt pain. The joint lock could have still been effectve.
So I would ask this...
Could she have resisted and gotten out of it when it was applied?
If the answer is no, then I would classify that as an effective jointlock. Hence, "Pain is just a bonus."
Hopefully this clears things up a bit.
Take care :asian:
My response (which probably could have been worded better) was to say, that's ok even though she may not have felt pain. The joint lock could have still been effectve.
So I would ask this...
Could she have resisted and gotten out of it when it was applied?
If the answer is no, then I would classify that as an effective jointlock. Hence, "Pain is just a bonus."
Hopefully this clears things up a bit.
Take care :asian:
I also should have been a bit more clear. I was speaking of feeling pain and learning from that, not gaining enjoyment from inflicting it on others. If my words came across differently, I apologize, that wasn't my intent.
andy
greendragon
Green Belt
I agree, feeling pain helps you understand where and how to apply it yourself. Last class I have a bunch of guys practicing thigh kicks where you bam the femur bone with your shin,,, no big deal if the technique is wrong on a heavy bag but when I saw them just going thru the motions I had them partner up and trade off thigh kicks very lightly on each other,,, Wow you should have seen the light bulb go off in their head when they started to feel how powerful and painfull the right placement of the shin bone could cause,, they refocused and fell in love with the kick,, before they kind of viewed it as some sort of roundhouse variation, but after the pain they viewed it as a pure weapon,,, couldn't have expressed it better WITHOUT the pain...
Michael Tomlinson
Michael Tomlinson
