Effectiveness of Empty Hand Arnis

[Makalakumu]

I have trained in Arnis for about two years and a general type of Kali for two. I also have a long background with other striking arts. I am wondering about peoples opinions regarding the empty hand arnis techniques. Could anyone give a good comparison/contrast of these techniques to other arts?

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
I have trained in Arnis for about two years and a general type of Kali for two. I also have a long background with other striking arts. I am wondering about peoples opinions regarding the empty hand arnis techniques. Could anyone give a good comparison/contrast of these techniques to other arts?

I think the empty hand techs. are great. Nothing fancy or hard to learn, just simple and to the point. They tend to focus of the joint locks and controlling, which is good because not every situation you're gonna come across is going to warrant you breaking someone knee. The also focus on the limb destructions which I love!!

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Modern Arnis empty hand techniques are a mixture of Filipino trapping and small circle jujitsu techniques, making for a highly devistating combination.

I believe that the empty hand application is why people of other Filipino arts should get some exposure to Modern Arnis; modern arnis is truly unique with its empty hand application, and its approach among other FMA.

The empty hand application is also why I believe that Professor Presas' time here in the United States was vital, and really helped his art come to maturity. He had "large circle" grappling techniques from Dumog, Judo, and Japanese Jujitsu, as well as trapping techniques from the Philippines when he 1st came to the U.S.. What got added over about a 15 year period was the developement and integration of Wally Jay's small circle method. Wally Jay and Remy Presas were road buddies and training buddies for this time, and they both learned from each other. This method of jujitsu fit in perfectly with our filipino trapping techniques, and translated well from weapon to empty hand.

I always knew the small circle jujitsu method was in our system, but the lightbulb really went on for me recently as to how important it was. I was at the bookstore, so I decided to pick up Prof. Wally Jays book. Virtually every single technique in there I had done before in modern arnis, and the methods explained coincided perfectly with how Professor used to joint lock. I have never trained under a small circle jujitsu instructor, yet I KNOW small circle jujitsu! Needless to say, I was completely amazed to find out how important this progression of small circle was to Modern Arnis. When Professor is your instructor, you see him as almost an invincable hero who must have always known what he has known, and that Modern Arnis always was the way you're learning it. I have learned more about the roots of his art since he has passed away then when he was alive. Needless to say, the small circle method is inseperable from Modern Arnis empty hand.

Having said that, The Modern Arnis empty hand system is good for COMBAT and real life fighting over anything else. The fact of the matter is that it took a long time before Wally Jay's jujitsu people started winning jujitsu tournaments. This was not because the style was inferior, but because they had to learn how to modify their techniques for competition; their method works well for performing techniques that are against tournament rules, such as small joint manipulation and control, and overall breaking. Modern Arnis with these roots has the same problem...our empty hand stuff works well for real life fighting rather then competition. Unfortunatily most of the ways other martial artists try to test the effectiveness of their techniques happends to be through competition. I often hear critiques like, "I can't trap a boxer" or "I can't block check strike when I point fight" or "I use most of my wristlocks when I grapple". Modern Arnis empty hand method was not designed for competition, so it would have to be modified for that. For combative application, though, it is the ideal mixture of trapping, limb destructions, striking, lower leg work, and small joint grappling for a deadly combo.

I would pit Modern Arnis empty hand work for real life fighting against ANY other style.

Now, with that all being said, I would suggest for Modern Arnis people, especially if they learned the art 1990 and beyond like myself, to learn some ground fighting and submission wrestling from a submission fighting art of some kind. The reason is because Professor had arthritis and knee problems for the last 10 years of his life, so he did very little ground grappling. As far as I understand, there wasn't much ground fighting in the earlier days either. So you may want to seek out a ground fighting instructor to help you fill in some blanks. You'll find that it is "all the same" on the ground, and that the Modern Arnis method fully applys to the ground, yet you might need an experienced grappler to help you see the connection.

Good luck with training, all...

Cheers!
PAUL
:cheers:

 

[bart]

Arnis empty hand is pretty good compared with other systems right off the bat. The checking and trapping is definitely stronger in FMA than it is in other systems. Sensitivity training is also an integral part of the curriculum so people are able to pick up more telegraphed movements, haymakers and such. Respect for the weapon is also a plus and it makes the hand techniques more practical.

Often times though FMAists tend to be right side only, cross position only fighters. I experienced this firsthand coming from Wing Chun which is notoriously ambidextrous and mirror position. This is a shortcoming that is often glossed over which allows lefties like me to gain an advantage in some cases. A righty on lefty fight is almost always done in mirror position, making the fight a competition for the outside. If you don't train for that, it is difficult to adjust for.

I also think that a lot of FMAists have a tough time dealing with kicks, especially low ones and that most of the skill in that arena comes from cross training in other arts in which that is an emphasis.

These two problems are not so much a difficulty within the system, it's more of one that comes from not including it as a regular part of training. The emphasis in FMA is weaponry, and as all of the empty hand is distilled from the stick work, mirror position off hand training, and legwork are often sacrificed for other aspects like disarms and the like.

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by bart
I also think that a lot of FMAists have a tough time dealing with kicks, especially low ones and that most of the skill in that arena comes from cross training in other arts in which that is an emphasis.

This was my observation. In my arnis classes, when we sparred, the students were pretty much unprepared to deal with kicks of any kind. These guys were awesome with their weapons and extremely fast hands, but I could control the distance with them all day. That is, unless, they also trained in a kicking art. Then my tricks were null and it was all out until we went to the ground and again, the training gave me the advantage.

I liked Paul's post. Small Circle jui-jutsu is great on the street when combined with trapping. Yet, I would like to caution, do not forget the big circles. On large opponents, that is often the only thing that works. Also, when you are tired and injured, big circles are easy and devestating.

 

[sercuerdasfigther]

i train serrada not arnis, but i have noticed a few things. like said earlier i'm mostly strong side oriented. all my senstivity and sticking ability are in my weapon arm. i just use my checking hand to catch a little bit. my teach is formally from wing chun and when he forces me to start left arm on left arm he tunes me up. i always switch back to my right side.
i have noticed that fma's ability to attack with hands across both high and low lines mess up alot of people( i've notice manthis kung fu does this also.).
against boxers i've noticed the ability to stick to there arms is quite handy. also the fact that when we go in we don't really come back out.

 

[Cruentus]

I also think that a lot of FMAists have a tough time dealing with kicks

I never thought of that. Reason being, I came from a kicking art (TKD). I also boxed, kickboxed, and wrestled, then did some submission stuff later. So when someone says "I have trouble using my stuff against ________ (Grappler, kicker, etc.)" I tend to not think that it might be a gap in their Modern Arnis, rather I tend to think that it is a gap in their training. THis may be incorrect on my part, because Presas Modern Arnis (which is what I am talking aout here; not all FMA are the same) certianly addresses some things better then others, depending on how you are taught.

I believe, though, that the modern arnis "concepts" translate over whatever your medium is. So, my suggesting to you if you are a modern arnis player if their is a gap in your training and your having trouble addressing a ground fighter, or kicker, (or whatever) then I say cross train and "Cross spar" a little with a skilled person in the medium your having trouble with. You will eventually find out how your modern arnis translates to that medium if you do this.

:asian:

 

[Pappy Geo]

Good fast high kickers can definitely be a problem for me, My training is all in low kicks including blocking them. My strategy is to close the range shutting down those high kicks, which works very well normally until I spar with an exceptionally talented kicker. Then it comes down to keeping out of range until timing presents itself.

My left side is trained to be a mirror of my right side since I am right handed, albeit left side is not as efficient and I still favor my right side. Utilizing the left side can be suprise to an opponent just like left handed boxers can be hard to cope with for most right handed boxers. I don't know why boxers don't train more with both leads and switch up in a bout confusing your opponent, that works for me.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by bart
[

Often times though FMAists tend to be right side only, cross position only fighters. I experienced this firsthand coming from Wing Chun which is notoriously ambidextrous and mirror position. This is a shortcoming that is often glossed over which allows lefties like me to gain an advantage in some cases. A righty on lefty fight is almost always done in mirror position, making the fight a competition for the outside. If you don't train for that, it is difficult to adjust for.

This is true. Learning the left side is something that IMO is often overlooked, but its definately important to learn.

I also think that a lot of FMAists have a tough time dealing with kicks, especially low ones and that most of the skill in that arena comes from cross training in other arts in which that is an emphasis.

I disagree with this. There are destructions that can be done against the high to medium level kicks, just like the ones that are done against punches. As for the low kicks, the best way to block those would be like you'd see a Thai fighter doing.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

As someone who used to kick a lot when sparring with the gear on, I'll lend some advise to everyone.

One of the most common ways I was able to kick people in the head had to do with where non-boxers keep their hands, where their eyes are focused, and how they block.

Modern Arnis people who are used to parrying don't usually protect themselves like a boxer, so their hands are usually positioned with one in front of the other, and often times below their jaw line. Their vision is usually focused between the eyes and shoulders triangle. They can see upper body movements fairly well, but if you know how to throw a kick without telegraphing too much with your upper body (until maybe right before impact), then this can be very decieving to them. I was often times able to hit people right in the face with my lead leg round house because they wouldn't even see it coming, and my foot would come right over their guard due to the positioning of their hands.

More on hand positioning; as a kicker, my objective was to get past their hands with my kicks to my target, or to get BEHIND THE HANDS with my kicks. I would come overtop, underneath, or in between to accomplish this. The further away their hands were from my targets (head, body) the easier it would be for me to get behind their hands. So, when the average martial arts person faught (especially from trapping systems), their hands in their guard often wandered outward, one hand before the other. They also often wandered below the jaw line. this gave me great opportunities to get behind their guard with my kick.

The third thing involves how they would block. With most people who parry, they reach out to meet the attacking limb with their hand to intercept the attack. This creates a great opportunity to fient with kicks if you are a kicker, especially if their hand and eye position is as described above. I'd throw a kick or two, maybe one high and one midrange (I would really try to hit them, and buy suprise); if they were able to parry, then this gave me an opportunity to study their parry; to learn its timing, how far out it travels to meet my kick, the start and end of his parry, and how fast it travels. I use that as a gauge; I now know when they execute their parries in relationship to the attack, how fast the parry travels, and how far out they are willing to go to meet the attack. As the kicker, the further out their parry is willing to travel, the better. So now I can throw a midlevel kick, and as their hands travel downward to parry, I change the direction of my kick and pop high. Or I aim high, then go low. It's all about timing, then, at this point.

Now, having this information, how would you defend against a kicker if you are not one yourself, especially in a geared sparring situation? There are a number of ways, but I'll address the 3 issue's above (hand positioning, eye focus, method of blocking). I'll address vision 1st. The one mistake you can't afford to make is to start looking at his legs. Kicks can become so decieving to a modern Arnis person because we don't kick high and modern arnis, so we are used to focusing our eyes on the upper body. As soon as we are facing a kicker, our instinct may be to start to focus our vision lower and lower. This is a huge mistake; if you are looking at the guys legs you will definatily get popped up top. Now, ideally with your perephials you should be able to look into the opponents eyes and see both hands and both feet. THis can be hard to do at times though. Regardless, keep your eyes up, and try to look at the whole body, not just upper, and definatily not just lower. 2nd thing would be hand positioning and blocking. As a kicker, I had the most trouble with boxing type defenses. rolling, taking impact of the blow in the arms, using arms and elbows to block the mid section, and always keeping the hands up, both hands, protecting the head. If you don't know how to move like a boxer effectively, learn. If you are sparring someone and you haven't yet learned, then I wouldn't try this. The reason why boxing type defenses are difficult for a kicker is because the objective is to get behind the guard; a difficult thing to do with a guard held as tightly to the body as a boxers. A secondary problem is that boxers don't "reach out" to meet an attack, so this is difficult to fient them. Regardless of what stance you take, position your arms closer to your body against a deceptive kicker. I'll repeat myself because it is worth repeating; kickers like to hit under, over, between, and mostly behind the arms with their feet. The closer your arms are to your body, the more difficult it is to do this. 3rd thing is your block, which is directly related to hand positioning. If you parry, don't extend too far. Remember much of your parry is how you position your body rather then the hand movement. you don't need to flail your hand WAY out to meet the attack. try to stay tight because once again, a kicker wants to get behind your hands to the target, and the tighter your parries and blocks are, the better. One final thing, remember that distance is key to pulling off effective kicks. They need the RIGHT distance to kick you. If you are too far for them to reach, this is good, but remember that they can slide in to get you. However, the closer you are, the more difficult it will be for them to kick.

I hope you all find my advise useful!

:asian:

 

[bart]

I'm not a long range kicker. My footwork is generally below the waist ala Wing Chun principles. The main difficulty that I've experienced in FMAists is the same that you get against alot of Karateka. Once you go to Corto range, if you keep the fight from grappling, the short low kicks and knee strikes are often missed and can do a lot of damage. Mainly the reason is not lack of strategy within the system, but rather lack of time spent training against that. The thing here is to control the kicker's balance because you are too close to block or parry with your hands without opening up targets in your head region. A slight tug down on the arm can take most of the power out of a knee strike or a kick. That idea is there in the art, but I got that from Wing Chun training and not directly from Arnis.

 

[bart]

My footwork is generally below the waist...

Hmmm...isn't everybody's?

I meant kicks.

 

[MJS]

When I was in Chicago at the Oct. Arnis camp, all of the Inst. were really trying to focus everybody to keep their hands up. They would want us to keep them higher up, closer to our face, kind of like you'd see a boxer doing.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by bart
Mainly the reason is not lack of strategy within the system, but rather lack of time spent training against that.

Agreed! I think FMA in general are more equipted technically speaking to deal with low kicks rather then high kicks, yet the problem I see is lack of training time against it. If the sensitivity principles with the hands are applied to the feet, it becomes a very learnable transition to make.

A slight tug down on the arm can take most of the power out of a knee strike or a kick. That idea is there in the art, but I got that from Wing Chun training and not directly from Arnis.

That concept is in Balintawak! We utilize that to protect from knee shots!

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by MJS
When I was in Chicago at the Oct. Arnis camp, all of the Inst. were really trying to focus everybody to keep their hands up. They would want us to keep them higher up, closer to our face, kind of like you'd see a boxer doing.

Mike

We always had this through the Sinawali boxing drill; and the Filipines has strong boxing systems both native and western influenced. Yet, I still find with a lot of "stick based" styles (because they are translating directly their stick methods to empty hand) the hands are not very boxer-like. It's not like boxing is an end all be all either, but one has to understand the strengths and limits of what they are doing.

I think it is good that you guys worked on keeping the hands up! Keep up the good work! This is something I see lacking in modern arnis players, so its good that this sort of thing is addressed.

:asian:

 

[MJS]

I always had my hand up, but it was more IFO the chest. I think its better to keep it near the face for several reasons. First, that would probably be the most likely target for a punch, therefore your hand is already there. Second, it allows you to also deliever a punch faster than if it was a chest height.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by MJS
I always had my hand up, but it was more IFO the chest.

Dude...I totally understand! Although this is more on the competitive side, when I was about 14 years old I started getting in the ring kickboxing. I had come from a point fighting and wrestling background. Granted, I was a little kid then, but yet when I would point fight my hands were, respectively, all over the place, and this worked to my advantage. I tryed this when I first got in the ring, and I got pounded. In fact, I'll never forget it. I was fighting the protege' of my TKD/kickboxing instructor(kickboxing world champ); he was a grown adult male who fought in more then one championships (never won, lost by decision). I was all over the place and thought I was doing sweet. All of a sudden, jab, strong right hand, turns my body completely around for a roundhouse to my left kidney area. I drop to the mat, and was out for 2 weeks with a pulled muscle in my back.

I decided that maybe I should learn how to kickbox, and keep my hands a little bit tighter to my body in the ring.

But, even when learning, and fighting in the ring with the protection of rules so my hands could/should be up, it was difficult. Especially when your getting hit, your arms start getting tired, and all of a sudden, your hands start dropping. There were many times when I would watch the fight tapes later to find that my hands weren't up like I thought they were.

Anyways, there is no "right" answer; boxing and gear fighting isn't a street fight, and boxing isn't an end all. I think it all comes down to understanding the strengths and weaknesses of what your doing. It's just some methods are good for some things, and others good for other things. Its at least good to know how and when to keep your arms tight and up, and when you can deviate from this.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
I have trained in Arnis for about two years and a general type of Kali for two. I also have a long background with other striking arts. I am wondering about peoples opinions regarding the empty hand arnis techniques. Could anyone give a good comparison/contrast of these techniques to other arts?

My Opinion is that the techniques are there. It all depends upon the person to put into it what they want to get out of it. It will not happen over night just like anything else.


As to low line kicks, I like them, and I like to block them with my feet and legs. (* Yes, I am giving away my secrets *) Some people will argue that the kick was not properly blocked if they get a partial extension and you block with a raised shin or knee. Then again many people will cry foul if you heel check someone's ankle.


As to having your hands too loow or too high, well if they are too low then people can come over top. If you have them right in front of your face they can be used against you. If they are too high and you need to use your hands low or low middle then you cannot get there in time. Be aware and watch your opponent, and how they move. Use your game, and your way of fighting and keep on it.

Just my thoughts
:asian:

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by PAUL
[

Anyways, there is no "right" answer; boxing and gear fighting isn't a street fight, and boxing isn't an end all. I think it all comes down to understanding the strengths and weaknesses of what your doing. It's just some methods are good for some things, and others good for other things. Its at least good to know how and when to keep your arms tight and up, and when you can deviate from this.

Good point. IMO, I believe that you have to be as well rounded as possible if you want to be prepared. That being said...making sure that you have a strong punching skill, kicking skill, close range (trapping) as well as the evil grappling!LOL! JK about the grappling--I love it!!

Granted boxing isnt the answer, but it does teach you the proper way to punch, cover, move, etc. Compare boxing to the way you'd see a regualr karate student throwing punches....HUGE difference.

Mike

 

[DoxN4cer]

Aside from the differences in whatever system you may use; it's the man, not the system that makes the art effective. Modern Arnis empty hand techniques are very effective, but not effective for every one. I'm sure that you have all met a person or two that practice, but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Ah... I digress...

The effectiveness of the system lies in simplicity. I agree with Paul. There are gaps in the Modern Arnis system which is why many MA people cross train in systems like jujitsu. You can fill in the gaps with combative information, but where many fall short of effective self defense is in the realm of mental preparation and "legal system" training.

I'm short on time at present, otherwise I would elaborate. Perhaps Paul Martin ot Tom Gerace would like to follow this up.

Tim Kashino