Drills

[Icepick]

I've been reading Matt Thornton's stuff again, particularly about Alive training vs. Dead (pre-programmed) drills. While I agree that it is important not to fall into the trap of becoming a "drill master", unable to deal with someone not familiar with the drill, but aren't there some advantages to traditional FMA drills?

Do you guys teach sumbrada, sinawali or the like? What skills do you feel these develop?

 

[Bob]

Originally posted by Icepick
I've been reading Matt Thornton's stuff again, particularly about Alive training vs. Dead (pre-programmed) drills. While I agree that it is important not to fall into the trap of becoming a "drill master", unable to deal with someone not familiar with the drill, but aren't there some advantages to traditional FMA drills?

Do you guys teach sumbrada, sinawali or the like? What skills do you feel these develop?

In my opinion being a drill master is okay as long as you take that drill and break it down to see where the combat attributes are inside the drill.
Drills should be done in a progressive manner. First the drill is learned and practiced at slow speed, then moved into a medium speed. At this medium speed level, techniques should be incorporated into the drill. Once this has been practiced and the moves are fluent then increase the speed of the drill as well as changing the range of the drill.
For ex: Drills such as 5 count and 10 count (names are different in different schools) should be done at combat speed and should be practice with a consistant rhythm and then practice with a broken beat as to counteract any predictability.
Another example: When practicing sinawalis the same progression should take place, get the rhythm down, and increase speed and take techniques from the sinawalis. Or use the practicing of the sinawali, as a chancs to practice half beats. Single sinawali is awesome for this.
Another example: While doing heaven have one guy defend against it with just a single stick and then go back into to the heaven drill without breaking beat......
Drills have there place in training. They help with timing, breaking of timing, reference points and the biggest benefit they help develop line familiarization.
Drills should only be part of the whole. They need to be balanced with sparring, or "live training"
Just my two and half cents..........
Thanks
Bob

 

[Black Grass]

The problem (I feel) is that too much time is spent on pre-set drilling and not enough on sparring. I consider sparring a drill, albeit one with less restistriction.

Pre-set or patterned drills (2 man or single) are about developing atrributes. Power, range, speed, finess or a combination of these. And with the right mind set are excellent training tools. But not the end all be all

Sumbrada or counter for counter, I feel is a good drill for recognizing positions for disarms, blocking or locks in middle range (sometimes close). What it doesn't do particularly well is simulate combat, however most people tend to practice it this way. Also most people it seems, tend to stay in middle range and stationary. If you move it a whole lot better.Its also a good drill to get the feel of different weapons and how the can be manuevered. I quite like this drill for dos manos(2-handed)

Sinawali, by this i assume you mean 2 man double stick mirror drills. I dislike the way that many practice pre-set double stick drills standing in front of each other. One is better off hitting tires so that power is developed ( and to save sticks). If done while moving I think this develops a sense of range (particularly long), combining footwork and stick work and also a sense of rythm can be developed. Again what it doesn't do particularly well is simulate combat.

Sangga at patama, or block and hit is good for practicing a given techniques at a control pace and refining it. I believe that some do not pay enough attention to this type of training as the get better givining them up for the fancier 2 man drills. I believe this is a mistake. its like stroking patterns it should be practiced continously.

There are many other types of drill but I just picked some of the more common ones. I think 2 man pre-set or pattern drills are good but I feel there is too much of a reliance on them in the practice of FMA here in the west and not enough sparring

Regards,

Black Grass

 

[Cthulhu]

Read IFAJKD's post of the Vunak interview in the JKD forum. Vunak explains how these drills ended up making him a better fighter. Good read.

Cthulhu

 

[Icepick]

Here is the Matt Thornton interview that spurred me into thinking about this:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/questions.html

I also got a fascinating answer to the same inquiry by Roy Harris, at his forum:

http://www.royharris.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236

 

[Icepick]

Black Grass & IFAJKD -

Could you please take a look at the Roy Harris post at this link?

http://www.royharris.com/forum/show...s=&threadid=236

Do you train anything "in-between" pre-set drills and sparring, to develop the ability to maintain a stickfight at mid-range? I'm starting to train my BJJ instructor, and when we spar, I fear it will turn into largo mano or grappling. Obviously, this cuts out the majority of Modern Arnis and Balintawak, which thrive in the corto range. It seems like it depends on the generation of power in a confined space and footwork. My brief Balintawak training has helped me to swing hard without a long windup, but footwork is a concern. Any ideas? I'm going to ask Renegade to work with me tonight, too.

I don't want to get shown up by the white belt, Kyle! Could damage my extremely fragile ego.

 

[Cthulhu]

How about sumbrada for medium range training? With 3 (and I think 5) count, you're close enough to use the live hand, but not quite close enough for punyo strikes to the head.

Cthulhu

 

[Icepick]

Cthulhu -

I like sumbrada a lot, at Tim's school we use the three count and a few variations on the 5. My question concerns the fact that these drills artificially keep you in my favorite range. I want to develop the skill to keep someone in that range, even if they don't want to play by the rules of the drill. Any ideas? I know it can be done, I've tried to shoot on Manong Ted...bad idea.

 

[Cthulhu]

This may be overly simple, but how about your sumbrada partner keeps backing or zoning away, making you learn how to adjust so as to stay in the desired range?

Cthulhu

 

[Icepick]

I've done that, too, Cthulhu, but you may be on the right track. Maybe just an increase in intensity? I'll try it with my partner attempting to shoot when he sees an opening. Some combination of stepping back and striking/sprawling...probably time to break out some padded sticks. I want to avoid that question of "did I hit hard enough to stop the shoot". Anyone worked on this???

 

[Cthulhu]

Here's another idea: train with your back to a wall or other obstruction. You can't move away to keep the range, so you have to find a way to keep distance using technique.

Sounds real hard. Have fun!

Cthulhu

 

[bscastro]

Drills develop speed, accuracy, distance, proper hand positioning, proper stickwork, etc. I think drills have great benefit, but they could also be varied and done with broken rhythm, etc. to make it more practical.

Also, the little things in a drill, such as accuracy of your partner's attack and energy do a lot from making a drill just a bunch of preset movements to a training tool to make one a better fighter, artist, etc.

Bryan

 

[Icepick]

Cthulhu -

Great idea about backing up to the wall! I've often wished they would hold an NHB event in an elevator. I think you'd see some interesting results.

Bryan -

I agree wholeheartedly! I don't mind working a drill slowly, but if your partner is not focused or drills sloppily, it's both useless and aggravating.

 

[Black Grass]

Sumbrada (counter for counter) I consider an in- between drill . Basically you freely mix up the angles and blocks. After someone has a good bases in sumbrada by the numbers (like 6 count or 10 count cycles) you simple just go one for one and not think in terms of cycles. What I like to do sometimes is pick and angle ( lets say #1) anything my partner does I block and counter with a #1 .Originally sumbrada was free as taught in Serrada, I believe it was Guro Dan who broke it down to specific drills.

How do you stay in middle range if your oppent wants to go into another range? Move! The easiest way to integrate this is by stepping everytime you strike or block forward or back. Lets take 6 count that would mean you step forward 6 time and your partner would step back 6 time. in the next cycle you reverse. Then you can start going sideways, in circles. But all this time you are still in middle range. The next step is you simple move, either you or your partner iiniating just make sure you stay in middle range.

When you combine free foot work and free stick work then you got yourself a drill!

more later...

Vince

 

[bloodwood]

While we're on the subject of drills here's one I use as a rapid response blocking only drill. It is done at a fast tempo with no time for the student to counter between strikes.
Here's the strike sequence:

1-8-2- abanico R-L-R-L -9-1-12- abanico 1- 12-2

most students have trouble with the abanico blocks and have a tendency to try and block them straight on without twisting and get hit in the sides of the head. they also have problems with the 12- abanico 1 - 12 combination

I believe that Balintawak teachers use this type of drill.

Comments gladly accepted

 

[Cthulhu]

Please take my FMA advice with a grain of salt, folks. I've only been actively practicing the FMA for a couple of weeks. However, I make sure not to give advice on stuff I haven't done yet.

I think having a fairly extensive background in an external system allows me to appreciate the simplicity of the FMA system, as I've found many uses for the few things I've been taught so far. However, I think the FMA lend themselves to this anyway

Cthulhu

 

[thekuntawman]

it is not right when people say that most philippine martial arts fighters use the drill for there training. the kind of power timing and speed you use for doing the drills is a different kind from what you need in fighting. the philippine martial arts taught in america and europe is very very different from what pilipinos are doing at home. most fighters who focus lots on the fighting part (sparring) dont do them, just like they dont do much of sinawali, yantok at daga, disarmings and other things like that. of course its true that almost every style uses all those things, but the small styles and guys who dont care about having a "complete" system, they usually just have the strikings and combination attacks and counters.

drilling is a different kind of skill. the drill of the "fma" is like the kata of karate. you can have one with or without the other, but being bad or good at one have nothing to do with your skill in the other one.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
most fighters who focus lots on the fighting part (sparring) dont do them, just like they dont do much of sinawali, yantok at daga, disarmings and other things like that. of course its true that almost every style uses all those things, but the small styles and guys who dont care about having a "complete" system, they usually just have the strikings and combination attacks and counters.

Could you expand on this--people in the Philippines who are actully training for competition and how they do it and what techniques they use?

 

[Black Grass]

The focus in the Philippines is much more getting the basics, conditioning and repeation. It is more like what you find in boxing and/or muay thai. Its more about training then learning. Sparring is key not 2 man drills.

 

[Icepick]

For those interested, another nice article:

http://www.jkdunlimited.com/off2.htm

Black Grass - When I last attended a Roy Harris BJJ seminar, he explained that free rolling is useful mostly for cardio work. If we roll to win, we're only practicing the things we are already good at... Kyle is fond of "drills" where we free grapple, but within limits, e.g. someone takes a top position, we grapple until the guy on the bottom escapes or submits. I think both Kyle and Roy view this kind of repetition as better for increasing a skill level. Is that the sort of thing you meant when you said, "When you combine free foot work and free stick work then you got yourself a drill!"?