Discussions on Bringing back the Camaro

[Rich Parsons]

This is the article in question:

GM Searches for RWD Options
Automotive News
April 18, 2005

By Jason Stein



DETROIT -- General Motors is scouring its shelves to find an architecture for its next generation of rear-wheel-drive vehicles.

One option under consideration is something GM executives are calling "Zeta light," a lower-cost version of the Zeta architecture that was supposed to be the basis for a new generation of premium rwd vehicles in North America.

In March, GM put several 2008 vehicle programs in limbo, including a production version of the Buick Velite concept and replacements for the Pontiac GTO and Buick Park Avenue.

GM insiders say Zeta light is one of many rwd proposals floating around the company that use existing platforms and components. Other possibilities include Sigma, the rwd architecture used by Cadillac's sedans and sport wagons; and Kappa, GM's small, sporty rwd car architecture debuting this year with the Pontiac Solstice.

No direction is clear.

The bottom line: GM insiders say they want rwd vehicles, including one in the mold of the Camaro muscle car, which was discontinued in 2002.

"It's something everybody wants to do," one GM insiders says. "We just have to do it right."

Last week GM Vice Chairman Robert Lutz told the SAE World Congress in Detroit: "We're going to take another look at high-performance rear-wheel drive. But it's going to be something I call Zeta light."

Jim Hall, an auto analyst for Auto-Pacific Inc. in Southfield, Mich., and a former GM employee, says there is an appetite for high-image, moderately priced vehicles inside GM. But there's a problem.

"The margin is very low on those vehicles," Hall says. "That's not what GM needs right now. What they need is a high-margin home run."

In a recent interview with Automotive News, GM Chairman Rick Wagoner said Sigma could be another option for rwd.

Wagoner said GM could decide to use either a Sigma derivative or a cheaper version of Zeta.

Wagoner said the economics of the derailed Zeta program didn't add up. It was "too expensive for what we wanted to do with it," he said. "This needs to cover a range of price-sensitive segments. The initial designs we saw of Zeta were not what we wanted, so that's where the costs began to come apart."

Wagoner also said rwd cars are "not a massive profit-driver decision in the near term." He added: "We need to do it right. In the scheme of things of what's going to drive the business over the next three or four years, this isn't the most critical item we're looking at."

GM spokesman Pat Morrissey says anything is possible: "We have different, flexible architectures on the shelf that we can look at other options. We're not starting from ground zero."

I like this comment:

The bottom line: GM insiders say they want rwd vehicles, including one in the mold of the Camaro muscle car, which was discontinued in 2002.

This is almost the number one question I get form people is, "What is or when is the replacement for the Camaro comiong out?"

At least there are discussions going on.

 

[arnisador]

I say, bring back the Model T!

 

[dubljay]

I was under the impression that when GM (Chevy) took the Comaro out of production is was to go under redevelopment and scheduled to be released sometime in 05 or 06. If I remember correctly it was never intended to end production permanently.

 

[The Kai]

You know I still got the Black Satin Camero Jacket and the driving Gloves.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I say bring back the 67 - 69 Camaro. artyon:

 

[Gemini]

Even when they discontinued the Camaro in '02, I always thought it was a ploy and it would come back. I never substantiated it based on anything tangible, just my own opinion.


It would be nice though, my Mustang is getting hungry for something a little beefier than what the imports offer. A 2007 Camaro with an LS2 at around 450hp would be a great matchup to the 2007 SVT Shelby.

 

[dubljay]

I say bring back the 67 - 69 Camaro. artyon:

Thats the idea, look at what Ford did with the Mustang, and the return of the GTO (which is nothing more than a Camaro or Firebird in different clothing). I am willing to bet that the new Camaro will have a "retro" look to comptete with the new Mustang.

 

[OUMoose]

Pssh. If they're so hell bent to sell "retro" cars, they should use a "retro" PRICE.

"Oh yeah... Your new 2007 uber-retro-stock Camaro with all the trimmings will total out too..... *calulator numbers punching*... $4785 dollars after tax. Will that be cash, check, or hand-chip swipe?"

 

[arnisador]

Even when they discontinued the Camaro in '02, I always thought it was a ploy and it would come back.

Sort of like the death of Superman?

 

[michaeledward]

I heard the 'retro' Thunderbird is going away soon .. prolly for good.

Retro doesn't really work in the quantities required to be profitable, with the possible exception of the Beetle.

 

[7starmantis]

Thats the idea, look at what Ford did with the Mustang, and the return of the GTO (which is nothing more than a Camaro or Firebird in different clothing). I am willing to bet that the new Camaro will have a "retro" look to comptete with the new Mustang.

That would be perfect for me, a new camaro with a bit of F1 body style. The '69 is my dream car, so a new twist might just be great. I have a '91 that I just use to play with, work on, and run a bit. I would sell it in a minute for a '69 of comparable mechanical shape, or a new 2007 with retro (F1) look.

7sm

 

[dubljay]

Throw backs to the "good ol' days" is something American car manufactures are really beating to death. Dodge has its Rumble Bee and the Hemi, Ford has the new Mustang and the Thunderbird (which is going bye-bye) GM has the GTO and most likely the new retro Camaro.

I think they should be working on cars with smaller engines and boost systems (supercharged or turbo) the fuel efficency would definately swing many people over to buying American cars as opposed to forgin. Just look at the competition, Subaru has the turbo WRX, VW has several turbo models, as does Audi... American car companies completely missed that train and they are paying for it now.

sorry for ranting... its a touchy subject for me

edit: I am all for the retro look, it breaks the mold of the everyday streamlined rounded off sedan/suv.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I was under the impression that when GM (Chevy) took the Comaro out of production is was to go under redevelopment and scheduled to be released sometime in 05 or 06. If I remember correctly it was never intended to end production permanently.

Well for insider information the replacement is on the market. Can you guess which model was the rework? And why it was not marketed as the rework?


The real reason the stop production, was because there was only one plant building them and GM was not selling enough of them to cover the cost of running a plant for two small production lines (* Camaro and Firebird *)


As they mentioned in the article, they are looking for a common line to build off of, and this would allow multiple vehicle lines to be built at the same plant and to cover the overhead costs

Even the XLR is built not in Bowling Green with Corvette.

 

[psi_radar]

Bitchin Camaro

Bitchin Camaro

Donuts on your lawn.

Bitchin Camaro

Bitchin Camaro

Tony Orlando and Dawn.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. If you read between the lines of that article, they basically said yeah, we've got our eye open for an rwd, but unless it falls out of our quest to find the next super-margin producer like the SUV or the minivan, we're not going too far out of our way to look for one. Kind of too bad, but honestly I think it's time for GM to look forward instead of backward. Big displacement isn't necessarily the holy grail of speed anymore. A Yamaha R1 with approximately 1 liter produces about 180 horses in the 2005 model. Put that in a light, small 4-wheel body and you've still got something hot, even with the extra smog gear. Honda's Accord Hybrid is the fastest of the Accord line. GM's inclination toward design conservancy continues to bite them.

 

[MJS]

I enjoyed mine when I had it, so I'd like to see them bring it back. Possibly do as Ford did with the Mustang...create a new body style based on an older model Camaro. Variety is always good. The new style of Mustang seems like its a big hit, and the same can be said of the Vette.

Mike

 

[dubljay]

Kind of too bad, but honestly I think it's time for GM to look forward instead of backward. Big displacement isn't necessarily the holy grail of speed anymore. A Yamaha R1 with approximately 1 liter produces about 180 horses in the 2005 model. Put that in a light, small 4-wheel body and you've still got something hot, even with the extra smog gear. Honda's Accord Hybrid is the fastest of the Accord line. GM's inclination toward design conservancy continues to bite them.

I couldn't agree more psi_radar. Look at the old Volkswagen twin turbo desiel pickup, that thing got between 50-60 mpg, that was way back too. The nice part about smaller displacement and boost is the power is definately still there and the fuel effeciency is there too.

on a side note I noticed that GM has a full size hybrid truck that has no loss of power and towing capability, but only has an increased fuel efficincy of an estimated 2mpg.

The Silverado 1500 Hybrid, available in select states(1) is offered as an Extended Cab in two- and four-wheel drive with a system that provides 120-volt AC power via four outlets -- two in the cab and two in the cargo box. These outlets offer the capability of running power tools or functioning as a generator in a remote area. And with a Vortec 5300 V8 engine and Hybrid-specific automatic transmission there's an increase of an EPA estimated 2 MPG in the city(2) with no loss in power and little loss in power and little loss in trailering and payload capabilities (compared to a traditional Silverado 1500 Extended Cab). Best of all, Silverado Hybrid is from the family of Chevy Trucks -- the most dependable, longest-lasting trucks on the road.(3)

1 California, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Alaska and Florida. 2 EPA estimated fuel economy in MPG (city/highway): 18/21 for 2WD model; 17/19 for 4WD model. 3 Dependability based on longevity: 1981- July 2003 full-line light-duty truck company registrations. Excludes other GM divisions.

heres the link http://www.gmbuypower.com/vehicleHo...=260&subModel=Hybrid&lowerPrice=&higherPrice=

Intesting to say the least.

 

[Sigung86]

I dunno about what is going on with mpg technology. Seems like computers could play a much larger part in the technology. For instance, I own a '99 Corvette Fixed Roof Coupe (Hardtop). The body style, eventually, became the Z06 for any Vette afficianados reading this ...

It is all drive by wire and computerized, and while it does have pretty exciting performance, when I get on the highway, I get really great mileage. Last Summer, I took a road trip to Kansas City with my wife, and we got 36+ mpg.
I can run up and down the Interstates from my house into St. Louis, doing 75mph+ and get 27 - 30 mpg.

I think for a car that has approx 360 hp (due to a modified breather unit), 345 hp stock, that is pretty respectable.

It's probably a whole different set of physics for trucks, SUVs and needs of heavy torque, like towing, etc. However, not being a truck guy, I have never looked into it.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Bitchin Camaro

Bitchin Camaro

Donuts on your lawn.

Bitchin Camaro

Bitchin Camaro

Tony Orlando and Dawn.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. If you read between the lines of that article, they basically said yeah, we've got our eye open for an rwd, but unless it falls out of our quest to find the next super-margin producer like the SUV or the minivan, we're not going too far out of our way to look for one. Kind of too bad, but honestly I think it's time for GM to look forward instead of backward. Big displacement isn't necessarily the holy grail of speed anymore. A Yamaha R1 with approximately 1 liter produces about 180 horses in the 2005 model. Put that in a light, small 4-wheel body and you've still got something hot, even with the extra smog gear. Honda's Accord Hybrid is the fastest of the Accord line. GM's inclination toward design conservancy continues to bite them.

I agree that from the article if it does not fit a larger profile of vehicles it must likely will not happen .

As to displacement, the Grand National is a great story, for one year it was faster than the vette for 0 to 60. But skunk work programs like this are not allowed and money is watched very close. Even though I agree, it would be nice to have these programs again.

As to the hybrid being the fastest, it is because the electric engine can give a uniform equal torque delivery to the wheels, which allows for the vehicle to hook up and get moving.

 

[psi_radar]

I agree that from the article if it does not fit a larger profile of vehicles it must likely will not happen .

As to displacement, the Grand National is a great story, for one year it was faster than the vette for 0 to 60. But skunk work programs like this are not allowed and money is watched very close. Even though I agree, it would be nice to have these programs again.

As to the hybrid being the fastest, it is because the electric engine can give a uniform equal torque delivery to the wheels, which allows for the vehicle to hook up and get moving.

Good points. It seems to me that GM's problems stem from the fact they think of the business before the cars. Understandable, since I've heard they have nearly a million people on their health care plan. But they're not going to be successful if they don't think of the cars and the people that love them first. Harley, which just surpassed GM in sales, is a good case study on how passion can be transformed into dollars.

 

[OUMoose]

Good points. It seems to me that GM's problems stem from the fact they think of the business before the cars. Understandable, since I've heard they have nearly a million people on their health care plan. But they're not going to be successful if they don't think of the cars and the people that love them first. Harley, which just surpassed GM in sales, is a good case study on how passion can be transformed into dollars.

I don't think Harley is as good as you might think, as that's more obsession than passion. Then again, I have a problem with paying for a name. YMMV.