Difference between WTF and KKW standards in poomsae

[miguksaram]

I'm sure this has been asked before, and possibly asked by me, but too many kicks to the head has rendered my memory useless.

What, if any, differences is there in WTF standards vs KKW standards in the taeguks?

 

[hungryninja]

From a standardization standpoint, I would think that there are no differences (or should be no differences). However, there may be differences from a competition/performance perspective, but I doubt that these would be considered "standards".

 

[miguksaram]

From a standardization standpoint, I would think that there are no differences (or should be no differences). However, there may be differences from a competition/performance perspective, but I doubt that these would be considered "standards".

Right...I should have mentioned that I am looking at competition standards differences. Thanks.

 

[puunui]

What, if any, differences is there in WTF standards vs KKW standards in the taeguks?

From a practical standpoint, there is none. Or so I have been told. This is especially true given the change in emphasis at the WTF level from technical standards to presentation. Presentation is or will be weighted more heavily that technical accuracy. I hear that it will sway 60/40 in favor of presentation, and eventually may go up to as high as 80/20 in favor of presentation over technical accuracy.

 

[miguksaram]

From a practical standpoint, there is none. Or so I have been told. This is especially true given the change in emphasis at the WTF level from technical standards to presentation. Presentation is or will be weighted more heavily that technical accuracy. I hear that it will sway 60/40 in favor of presentation, and eventually may go up to as high as 80/20 in favor of presentation over technical accuracy.

Thank you. So do you think that WTF is going the way of sport karate where they will be looking more of a performance than accuracy of the form itself?

 

[puunui]

Thank you. So do you think that WTF is going the way of sport karate where they will be looking more of a performance than accuracy of the form itself?

I think we needed to emphasize technical accuracy in the beginning, to get everyone on the same page. People do all sorts of weird things in the standard poomsae, and we needed to get away from that. But I believe the leaders realized that too much emphasis on technical accuracy made people's presentations, stiff and dry. People were so worried about getting minor deductions for being one millimeter off on their stance that it caused people to overemphasize technical accuracy.That took the "wow" out of poomsae performances. Now that we have grown somewhat, we can relax a little on the technical standards and move towards what other presentation sports have, that wow factor. I know nothing about ice skating or gymnastics, but I know a good performance when i see one, and can generally pick out the winner. That is I think where they are trying to take us.

 

[miguksaram]

I think we needed to emphasize technical accuracy in the beginning, to get everyone on the same page. People do all sorts of weird things in the standard poomsae, and we needed to get away from that. But I believe the leaders realized that too much emphasis on technical accuracy made people's presentations, stiff and dry. People were so worried about getting minor deductions for being one millimeter off on their stance that it caused people to overemphasize technical accuracy.That took the "wow" out of poomsae performances. Now that we have grown somewhat, we can relax a little on the technical standards and move towards what other presentation sports have, that wow factor. I know nothing about ice skating or gymnastics, but I know a good performance when i see one, and can generally pick out the winner. That is I think where they are trying to take us.

This is where my ignorance of poomsae competition comes into play (or perhaps my bias due to being involved in sport karate.). When I watch poomsae, I do not see the opportunity of "wow" factor ever coming into play. Mostly because of the strict adherence to the technical standards of the form. So competitor 'A' would look the same as competitor 'B' in theory, if they executed the poomsae correctly.

So could you, or anyone familiar with competition poomsae, give me examples of where the 'wow' factor would come into play. Since I participate in the US Open Hanmadang against people much more qualified than myself, any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Cyriacus]

This is where my ignorance of poomsae competition comes into play (or perhaps my bias due to being involved in sport karate.). When I watch poomsae, I do not see the opportunity of "wow" factor ever coming into play. Mostly because of the strict adherence to the technical standards of the form. So competitor 'A' would look the same as competitor 'B' in theory, if they executed the poomsae correctly.

So could you, or anyone familiar with competition poomsae, give me examples of where the 'wow' factor would come into play. Since I participate in the US Open Hanmadang against people much more qualified than myself, any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

I will, actually. Things like doing the Pattern with Time Delays, with the Group standing in a certain Formation.
Having Music in the backdrop.
And so forth.

 

[StudentCarl]

I will, actually. Things like doing the Pattern with Time Delays, with the Group standing in a certain Formation.
Having Music in the backdrop.
And so forth.

I respectfully disagree. I think the wow factor is: presence--a relaxed intensity communicated by face, shoulders and posture; controlled power--not forced but fluid and quick yet precise without hurrying or overreaching; and centered but expansive energy--staying within your center but using the whole body with power, unity, and good lines to reach full extension with visible precision and power at the (imagined) point of impact.

No music or anything outside the athlete; just a skilled athlete using his/her body flawlessly.

 

[Cyriacus]

I respectfully disagree. I think the wow factor is: presence--a relaxed intensity communicated by face, shoulders and posture; controlled power--not forced but fluid and quick yet precise without hurrying or overreaching; and centered but expansive energy--staying within your center but using the whole body with power, unity, and good lines to reach full extension with visible precision and power at the (imagined) point of impact.

No music or anything outside the athlete; just a skilled athlete using his/her body flawlessly.

And yet, ive seen Poomsae things with Music, Formations, and Coordinated Time Delays.

I wasnt speaking Theoretically, thats just an Example of "Wow" factor as I have seen it.

 

[miguksaram]

While both of you have good points you have to keep this in mind, in terms of extras such as music being thrown in, this is not allowed in individual traditional poomsae so you lose that wow factor. As far as athleticism is concerned, when you get up to world events most all of them are great at what they do so that sort of washes out that particular wow factor. So what else can one do to separate himself/herself from the rest of the crowd?

 

[puunui]

While both of you have good points you have to keep this in mind, in terms of extras such as music being thrown in, this is not allowed in individual traditional poomsae so you lose that wow factor. As far as athleticism is concerned, when you get up to world events most all of them are great at what they do so that sort of washes out that particular wow factor. So what else can one do to separate himself/herself from the rest of the crowd?

It's like any other traditional poomsae competition. Some competitors simply look better and feel better than the rest. When I attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Korea ten years ago, GM LEE Chong Kwan demonstrated Keumgang for the class. I had seen footage of him doing Keumgang from the 1975 WTF film and also the 1997 Kukkiwon video. But watching him perform it live, was incredibly inspiring. I don't know how to explain it beyond the fact that we were all mesmerized by his performance. It was definitely a "wow" moment. What was even more impressive was that he said that he hadn't practiced Keumgang in a while so he was a little rusty. I think what you are talking about is how poomsae competition was headed, but we need to move away from that sort of robotic performance and encourage our competitors to let their personality and spirit shine through in their presentation.

 

[puunui]

This is where my ignorance of poomsae competition comes into play (or perhaps my bias due to being involved in sport karate.). When I watch poomsae, I do not see the opportunity of "wow" factor ever coming into play. Mostly because of the strict adherence to the technical standards of the form. So competitor 'A' would look the same as competitor 'B' in theory, if they executed the poomsae correctly.

I think that is what some leaders in the USAT poomsae movement was shooting for, having everyone look like robots. The problem with that approach is that people's performances end up looking robotic. Again, we needed some of that, or maybe even a lot of that in the beginning due to the extreme differences in poomsae technical standards out there. Doing the slap blocks in the beginning of Taebaek like some sort of isometric exercise for example, instead of doing it like it is supposed to be done, which is quickly. But we have evolved to the point where we need to look for the expression of personality and spirit within the confines of those technical quidelines. At the moment, competitors are so worried about making technical mistakes that their personality and spirit get stifled in their performance. The net result is that other countries win the medals. Everyone knows the problem, and people are working on it in their own different ways.

 

[sadantkd]

Doing the slap blocks in the beginning of Taebaek like some sort of isometric exercise for example, instead of doing it like it is supposed to be done, which is quickly. \

I'm assuming you're talking about moving down the middle line when you punch, and then move the hands, I honestly think it looked much better the way we did it back then. In fact, it's funny. I just posted a thread about this type of thing.

 

[SPX]

From a practical standpoint, there is none. Or so I have been told. This is especially true given the change in emphasis at the WTF level from technical standards to presentation. Presentation is or will be weighted more heavily that technical accuracy. I hear that it will sway 60/40 in favor of presentation, and eventually may go up to as high as 80/20 in favor of presentation over technical accuracy.

So what exactly is "presentation"? I mean, what are the judges looking for?

Kata/forms competition has always been a strange thing to me because it seems so subjective.

 

[mastercole]

I'm sure this has been asked before, and possibly asked by me, but too many kicks to the head has rendered my memory useless.

What, if any, differences is there in WTF standards vs KKW standards in the taeguks?

There are WTF World level Poomsae competitors on this board, they can most likely answer this better than me. What I noticed, from watching Kukkiwon Poomsae competition at the World Hanmadang in Korea, and then a week later attending the Korea Open and watching WTF Poomsae competition, comparing the two, I don't know if I could tell the difference. They were both extremely impressive and I think competitors of one venue would perform equally as well in the other.

One thing that came out at the drawing of lots meeting by the KTA at the Korea Open, addressed by the KTA Referee Chairman, was that there were very minute differences, and not many at that. It had to do more with time, cadence and in a few places, where to step down after hakdari seogi. It seemed almost not worth addressing.