Did Man make God?

[Touch Of Death]

You suggested in another thread that you were once agnostic (perhaps atheist?). I'm not sure I can even begin to imagine all the terrible things you did before you got the fear of God in you. This combined with all the high level police and detective work you've done around the country on various very important cases might make for quite an interesting memoir to read some day.

I doubt it is less about what he did, and more about what he has seen.
Sean

 

[Buka]

"Did man make God?"

If he did, I hope he did a better job than Microsoft did with Windows.

 

[ballen0351]

You suggested in another thread that you were once agnostic (perhaps atheist?). I'm not sure I can even begin to imagine all the terrible things you did before you got the fear of God in you.

Actually I was very immoral person. No so much when I became a cop out of fear of loosing my job but prior to when I was in the Marine Corps I was the last man you would ever want near your daughter but if I was you wouldn't need to worry for long because I wouldnt be there for long. Not to mention I was just a mean person to others.

This combined with all the high level police and detective work you've done around the country on various very important cases might make for quite an interesting memoir to read some day.

I dont know about the around the country part or high level but Ive seen more evil more then most people.

 

[ballen0351]

Im also not saying people cant be civilized without religion but without it whats the motivation? Just being a swell guy isnt enough for alot of people.

 

[Steve]

This is a personal request, not an official comment. I want to make that clear, since there could be some confusion.

Something that really bothers me from some of the atheists and agnostics around here is the disdainful attitude they show towards people of faith. If I were to imply that someone was stupid, lazy, uninformed or uneducated because they didn't believe in God, I'd rightly be laughed out of the room. But it seems that it's perfectly OK for someone who doesn't believe to use belittling phrases or outright insults towards those who do believe. There's plenty of room to discuss these issues without being asses about it -- on either

I think that the disdain and condescension is going freely both ways. Christians aren't being victimized here. The sanctimony of a select few Christians here is almost unbearable.

Christians don't hold any kind of moral monopoly, and the Christian god is not the only possible explanation for anything, whether it's the creation of the universe or anything else.

By all means, believe what you want, but questions like, "if not god, then what? " are loaded with patronizing smugness ignoring literally every other religion or non-religion. It sets an immediate negative tone.

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[Steve]

Im also not saying people cant be civilized without religion but without it whats the motivation? Just being a swell guy isnt enough for alot of people.

Maybe there's an inherent drive in most people, call it instinct, to be good. Good meaning productive and constructive. And that instinct is nurtured by their parents who strengthen these mores as they are raised, so that the kids can become healthy, happy, successful and productive adults who live fulfilling lives.

We are, at our core, herd creatures. Pack animals. We are driven to be a part of groups. It makes us happy. We derive satisfaction from service. And, as a group, we are compelled to protect our groups from other groups that threaten us and people who are destructive.

Add a higher intellect to the mix and a self awareness, and the social dance becomes a lot more complicated in practice.

We are a lot more complicated than other animals, but we remain biological creatures. Some animals know intuitively how to herd other animals. Some are driven to hunt.

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[ballen0351]

By all means, believe what you want, but questions like, "if not god, then what? " are loaded with patronizing smugness ignoring literally every other religion or non-religion. It sets an immediate negative tone.

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Its not ment to be negative. Its a question. If you dont believe in something bigger then us and we are nothing more then cells that work together, we have no spirit and no judgement day then what is the motivation to live a good life if it means nothing? Obviously society itself isnt enough of a motivation or Id be out of a job. If there is no God, is there good and evil? These are valid question for the discussion. Nowhere in this thread have I seen a christian call a non believer lazy, ignorant, intellectual lazyness, delusional, irrational. Cant say the same for the non-believers.

 

[ballen0351]

Maybe there's an inherent drive in most people, call it instinct, to be good. Good meaning productive and constructive. And that instinct is nurtured by their parents who strengthen these mores as they are raised, so that the kids can become healthy, happy, successful and productive adults who live fulfilling lives.

I disagree watch little kids play without adult intervention. They hit, steal, bite, cry, kick, ect. Thats human instinct

We are, at our core, herd creatures. Pack animals. We are driven to be a part of groups. It makes us happy. We derive satisfaction from service. And, as a group, we are compelled to protect our groups from other groups that threaten us and people who are destructive.
[
Add a higher intellect to the mix and a self awareness, and the social dance becomes a lot more complicated in practice.

We are a lot more complicated than other animals, but we remain biological creatures. Some animals know intuitively how to herd other animals. Some are driven to hunt.

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We are alot more complicated and that goes to prove we are more then just matter=time=chance.

 

[Steve]

Its not ment to be negative. Its a question. If you dont believe in something bigger then us and we are nothing more then cells that work together, we have no spirit and no judgement day then what is the motivation to live a good life if it means nothing? Obviously society itself isnt enough of a motivation or Id be out of a job. If there is no God, is there good and evil? These are valid question for the discussion. Nowhere in this thread have I seen a christian call a non believer lazy, ignorant, intellectual lazyness, delusional, irrational. Cant say the same for the non-believers.

This doesn't follow. It's possible that we do have spirit, judgment and motivation to live a good life without any god. The implication here is that atheists are... What? Fill in the blank. What's the opposite of good? Maybe you just have no idea how intentionally insulting you are.

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[Touch Of Death]

This doesn't follow. It's possible that we do have spirit, judgment and motivation to live a good life without any god. The implication here is that atheists are... What? Fill in the blank. What's the opposite of good? Maybe you just have no idea how intentionally insulting you are.

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You speak as if atheist have all banded together and somehow have it together. After all. don't they get to believe what they want?

 

[ballen0351]

This doesn't follow. It's possible that we do have spirit, judgment and motivation to live a good life without any god.

Whats a spirit then and whos judgement?

The implication here is that atheists are... What? Fill in the blank. What's the opposite of good? Maybe you just have no idea how intentionally insulting you are.

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Im not intentionally insulting anyone and I didnt make that statement. I asked the question can you have good and evil with out God? Good and evil are not biological terms if all we are according to some are just cells that formed and no more no less is there good and evil? Of course atheists can be good neighbors to society I never said they cant.

 

[Steve]

I disagree watch little kids play without adult intervention. They hit, steal, bite, cry, kick, ect. Thats human instinct

We are alot more complicated and that goes to prove we are more then just matter=time=chance.

Some do and some don't. I've spent a lot of time around kids, and any kicking, biting, stealing and hitting is very rare. And you're neglecting the nurture part. Kids need some training, because our instincts are tempered by a lot of other things, such as culture. But overall, kids. Particularly very young kids under six, have an inherent desire to be good.

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[Touch Of Death]

Spirit is your will to live. Science hasn't supplied us with a reason, just yet, but have faith.

 

[ballen0351]

Some do and some don't. I've spent a lot of time around kids, and any kicking, biting, stealing and hitting is very rare. And you're neglecting the nurture part. Kids need some training, because our instincts are tempered by a lot of other things, such as culture. But overall, kids. Particularly very young kids under six, have an inherent desire to be good.

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We will have to disagree on that. If a kid wants something another kid has they will take it or at least try to. When isay kid Im talking toddlers not 6 yr olds by then they have learned manners thats not instinct thats modified behavior

 

[Steve]

You speak as if atheist have all banded together and somehow have it together. After all. don't they get to believe what they want?

How so? And an atheist can also be a good person. And there can be a belief in evil and good outside of a god... Certainly outside of the Christian god.


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[Touch Of Death]

How so? And an atheist can also be a good person. And there can be a belief in evil and good outside of a god... Certainly outside of the Christian god.


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But there is nothing to hold people to what ever cause you might take up. That is not to say you can't convince them. You just won't have them by the foundation of their soul.

 

[Steve]

We will have to disagree on that. If a kid wants something another kid has they will take it or at least try to.

Yeah, we do have to teach kids to share. And we also have to teach them to respect boundaries. But does that mean they have to be taught to be good? I think there's an instinct to be a part of the pack. And all kids have empathy and compassion. Although some less than others. All kids crave structure and thrive when they understand their boundaries. And of course, we are all individuals, born with a particular blueprint influenced by our accumulated experiences, including how we were raised and by whom.

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[ballen0351]

How so? And an atheist can also be a good person. And there can be a belief in evil and good outside of a god... Certainly outside of the Christian god.


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Whats Good and whats evil if you dont believe in anything other then the biological working of the body. If there is nothing spiritual out there we are just cells working together?

 

[Steve]

Whats Good and whats evil if you dont believe in anything other then the biological working of the body. If there is nothing spiritual out there we are just cells working together?

I didn't say that I only believe in the biological workings of the body. I simply don't believe in a god.

My definition of good and evil are likely very similar to your own.

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[ballen0351]

Yeah, we do have to teach kids to share. And we also have to teach them to respect boundaries. But does that mean they have to be taught to be good? I think there's an instinct to be a part of the pack. And all kids have empathy and compassion. Although some less than others. All kids crave structure and thrive when they understand their boundaries. And of course, we are all individuals, born with a particular blueprint influenced by our accumulated experiences, including how we were raised and by whom.

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I agree but thats not instinct thats learned and modified behavior. Our instinct is not so good.