Deflecting Hammer

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by Rob_Broad, Aug 20, 2002.

  1. WilliamTLear

    WilliamTLear Guest

    The curvilinear path of action used by the elbow is very important to note here because of the angle of entry it utilizes at it's point of impact. In other words... If I were throwing a linear punch after deflecting the kick I would want to be comming from 6:00, but since I am using a curvilinear path of action with the elbow... the force of the elbow strike is maximized from 7:30. Thanks for the discussion.
     
  2. eternalwhitebelt

    eternalwhitebelt Green Belt

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    The path of action may be different but at the point of contact they are in the same place. I believe the main reason for stepping to 6:00 is for economy of motion in using the elbow strike. Stepping to six allows you to parry the kick while your arm goes back on the 6 line. It then cuts the circle in half and turns into an elbow strike. This also allows fr more travel distance and greater power in your strike. If you step to 7:30 and do a downward block the orbit of your block is not conducive to one continuos motion turning it into an elbow strike. Th motion becomes choppy while you adjust the orbit and it is not physically possibe to make this motion continuos. There isalso less travel distance, hence less power. The body does not work this way. Having said all that I really don't think it matters. I have seen people do this tech. both ways. I think stepping to 6 is more efficient but I still think stepping to 7:30 will get the job done. I mean it is an elbow strike after all and they are hard to recover from if they are landed.
     
  3. Where does travel time come into the picture of power? Power is generated by speed and mass, mass being the primary, speed enhancing it. My thoughts are to move the mass and not create new points of origin if unnecessary, or to throw it in a wider orbit and have something else hit you in the course of your action. Would you please explain the hypothesis of travel time?

    Have a great Kenpo day

    Clyde
     
  4. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

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    Well if I may, I'd like to add to the discussion. I present the information only to continue to promote the discussion, and not to determine the correctness of anyone's interpretations other than my own. Please consider these perspectives as I understand them.

    For various reasons instructors have modified this technique and added unnecessary and thematically incorrect footwork, (Web of Knowledge). This technique is designed to make you consider various, but very specific ideas, and "stepping off line" is not one of them. The idea is for the technique to teach you to deal with a straight kick when you can only step backwards. Consider perhaps an environmental restriction such as a wall or table etc.

    Stepping off line will take away the "Borrowed Force" componant of this lesson plan technique idea. Your opponent is supposed to "fall into" your elbow strike as he plants excessively forward from his kicking assault as you exploit the "defelction." There are other techniques that specifically ask you to consider "stepping off line for a straight kick at the next belt level. Traditionally techniques that use sophisticated avoidance footwork are explored further down the line. Stepping backwards is a more natural response for a beginner. (Remember a person is going from no training to this technique)

    The technique is named "Deflecting HAMMER" because it wants you to learn to utilize what is called a "complimentary downward block," not a parry. A Parry "rides and redirects." A "defelection is predicated on the Angle of Intersection which may vary from an Angle of Incidence (right angle) up to the angle where it no longer deflects and becomes a parry. Parry is a subcategory of a block. Blocks "check or hinder" by definition. Further, the hand is "closed" in a "hammer" position to protect the fingers at that level, thus the name of the technique, "Deflecting Hammer."

    In my teaching we also consider the "Double Check Factor" as soon as a student is capable of assimilation of the technique specific information, utilizing both hands in the execution. Executed properly this technique is quite effective, but care and time must be factored into a students learning to effectively execute it.

    Changing, or failing to consider any of the above factors does not make the technique NOT Deflecting Hammer, but it will change the lesson plan significantly and suggest alternative information while missing significate lessons to be learned from the Web of Knowledge Lesson Plan Theme of the technique.

    Respectfully,
     
  5. eternalwhitebelt

    eternalwhitebelt Green Belt

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    Not time, distance. Travel distance is what I am talking about. I agree with you Clyde, it is speed and mass. But more speed is generated the further away you are, up to a point of course. Can you hit something harder with your hand on the target, or the hand a few feet away with a wind up? In this particulr case the wind up is the motion of the parry. This is where the economy of motion comes in, the parry becomes the strike while using the back up mass from springing forward and the borrowed force of your opponent falling into it. I am not creating new points of origin that was my point, staying in an efficient orbit and using te motion of the parry to become the strike. This also aids in accuracy, which is actually more important than speed and power.
     
  6. I've found that the only time distance is needed is for whipping/snapping, other than that, it's not necessary. I've relied on body fusion with my strikes and keep my motion tight to utilize the mass more effectively combined with Point of Origin. The closer to my opponent I am the better, it nulls the zones of height, width, and depth when done correctly, or in essence, vertical grappling with the ability to drop weight into a strike, and to use your stances, body and weapon torque to maximize your efficiency. I don't like being in zones that I would have to wind up to get a good strike in because it allows your opponent the same oppurtunities.

    Have a great Kenpo day

    Clyde
     
  7. eternalwhitebelt

    eternalwhitebelt Green Belt

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    I agree with what you have to say. That is why I said to be efficient the parry is your wind up. It was just a term. In actuality you do not wind up your parry becomes your strike so in fact your opponent does not have time to react. I think we are saying the same thing in a different way. One thing I will say though is that some kenpo people take the efficiency thing too far, (not you in particular clyde) and tend to forget that to hurt someone you have to hit them really hard. I am aware of the term big circles cause big problems but I see a lot of people who worry too much about speed and constipate their motion and do not have any real penetrating power.
     
  8. Klondike93

    Klondike93 Master Black Belt

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    Thanks Doc, for putting into words what I could not. This almost exactly how my instructor explained it to me why you step to 6 and 7:30 as I was doing.


    :asian:
     
  9. kenpo3631

    kenpo3631 Black Belt

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    with ALL bias....

    I have seen my instructor, Huk, Mr. Trejo, Mr. T. Kelly, Sean Kelley and numerous others all step back to 6 o'clock. I feel that emulating there movements (after asking why of course) can't be wrong.:asian:
     
  10. eternalwhitebelt

    eternalwhitebelt Green Belt

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    I second that.
     
  11. WilliamTLear

    WilliamTLear Guest

    Who said that they were wrong?

    I can offer you this though... Each of the gentlemen you mentioned have different ways of doing other techniques. How do you solve that problem? Elect an instructor of the month and do it that way? (joking)

    I guess I must agree to disagree... Although I think that the discussion was a good one. It made me think and ask several people questions about how and why?

    Take Care,
    Billy Lear :asian:
     
  12. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

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    I agree with Mr. Lear. Nobody is wrong for their interpretations. That is why the lesson plan is designed the way it is. However there are guides throughout to issure instructors give the students an overall perspective. You may violate the Web of Knowledge if, as a teacher, you choose to, to suit your your needs. But remember it was designed to FORCE you to consider certain assaults to make your teaching more complete and the greatest benefit to your students.
     
  13. MMAkid1

    MMAkid1 Yellow Belt

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    In my Class we are taught that technique. It was originially described perfectly, however in our class, after the downward block (stepping back of course), we pivot back into a forward bow and execute a snap kick to the groin, and as we land with the foot, we use gravity to increase the power of the elbow, which goes at a downward angle to the temple. Just thought I'd give you our variation in Chinese Kenpo.
     
  14. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

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    If you're talking about "Deflecting Thunder" from IKCA cirriculum then the EPAK technique that would correspond is "Thrusting Salute." The difference between "Deflecting Thunder" and "Thrusting Salute" is basically this: Deflecting Thunder ends with the right inward elbow; Thrusting salute ends with a right heel palm.

    I don't know what the corresponding tech would be in IKCA but i can tell you this if it helps: Step back to 7:30 with your left and block outside the right leg with a right outward downward block to start it off.
     
  15. MMAkid1

    MMAkid1 Yellow Belt

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    We have thrusting Salute as well. It is a yellow belt technique.
     
  16. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

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    Thanks for the info, I am unaware as to most of the IKCA cirriculum. When you said that you practiced the technique (which I thought was the subject {Deflecting Hammer}) I knew that IKCA had the Orange belt "inside a right kick" that corresponded to Thrusting Salute with an elbow instead of the heel palm.

    So that makes me curious: Do you mean you practice your "Deflecting Hammer" with a kick to the groin? I have sometime practiced it with a knife edged kick to the back of the right knee since when I do it, the attacker's front isn't presented (he's either got his back to me or his side to me, depending on the angle I block the kick, etc). I suppose I could do a lift kick or a scoop kick to the groin (again, depending on the angle) coming from his backside. Thanks in advance for the info....
     
  17. MMAkid1

    MMAkid1 Yellow Belt

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    When we make the block, it should spread his legs and keep him facing us, revealing the groin for a nice snap kick. ALso, we practice thrusting salute in the exact same manner, except of course with the palm instead of the elbow.
     
  18. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Kicking automaticly is probably a mistake, just as in thrusting salute, but I like the option. It sort of fits a snaking talon idea I've been pondering these days. IE what if the first part never happened. LOL
    Sean
     
  19. MMAkid1

    MMAkid1 Yellow Belt

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    "Kicking automaticly is probably a mistake"
    I don't understand. What do you mean by that?
     
  20. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

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    Meaning blocking and kicking without taking a split second to assess the situation and seeing if the coast is clear for that kick.123
     
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