Okay, how do you keep the joint lock from happening on YOU? What if it's too late for a quick release and you're got? Any Hapkidoin have any good counters?
Defense against joint locks
- Thread starter shesulsa
- Start date
If my wrist is locked, I try to keep my elbow fluid and do a good ukemi. If I can expose a weakness in the tori's technique, I will exploit it. Other locks are more difficult to defend against. With arm bars, I will try and reach over with my other arm or attempt to climb their fulcrum. With chokes, I just try to keep my chin down and take away my opponents leverage. With ankle or knee locks, I attempt to twist away from the leverage and kick.
American HKD
Brown Belt
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Greetingsshesulsa said:
Most trad. HKD schools dont teach reversals until 3rd dan, I'm saying that because most people on the forum haven't learned them yet.
Many Instr. don't know them either.
Also it's maybe hard to convey the concepts clearly in writting
It truly is difficult to put into writing as there are so many different locks. The advice I always give is feel the energy and roll (literaly if necessary) with it. If you can't roll with it then extend through it (in an ankle lock scenario). Practice, train and PLAY! That's the best way to get through them.
In Danzan Ryu Juijutsu, the shin jin list deals with reversals. This list is taught at 1st kyu. I haven't learned it yet.
Easy way..don't underestimate anyone's sneakiness,ever.shesulsa said:
If you're got in a good one.you're got. Go with it,take Nauk Bup like a good little Hapkidoin and learn from it.
If it's a not so good one there are things you can do to "hold them up" a bit.:wink2:
Kuk Sa Nim
Green Belt
This is a very good question that I have been asked soo many times. How do you prevent or escape a joint lock?
This is generally an "advanced" area of study in most arts that focus on joint locking techniques, (if it is even taught at all), but this is actually very basic information. The key is understanding the basic functions of the main joint locks (how they work, and don't work) and as was mentioned here previously, understanding the energy involved.
I wont get into some other VERY important aspects that are commonly breezed over or flat out overlooked such as set ups, trapping, integration of tactics and effective follow ups and finishes, and counters to all the above. Instead Ill focus on the precise art of understanding how to recognize a lock being applied and how to avoid and escape it.
All armbars, wrist locks, knee bars, shoulder locks, etc are only effective when certain elements are incorporated into the joint lock application. Such as, isolation of the given joint, skeletal locking, proper overloading of energy into the joint ("bottle necking of the energy"), also possibly, effective use of pressure points, among some other finer points, but these are the main ones.
These principles are essential to any effective joint lock technique. In our art of Modern Farang Mu Sul®, we use a drill called continuous joint locking to teach sensitivity in applying locks and flowing into them. This drill also helps to feel them being applied on you, and teaches the correct feeling and timing needed in order to avoid them as well as escaping them. This is taught to all of our students from white belt and on.
Here is the "SECRET" formula:
In order to defeat any joint lock, you must understand the energy involved, and work it into your favor. There are three main options:
1- Stop the energy
2- Go with the flow of the energy
3- Redirect the energy
That's it. Understanding these concepts and the techniques used in conjunction with them places us on the path to becoming virtually impossible to be locked up, and also makes your joint locks incredibly more effective as you have a greater understanding on how to apply them in the most powerful and efficient way.
Truthfully, this is very hard to convey in writing, but I hope some may catch the concept.
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba
This is generally an "advanced" area of study in most arts that focus on joint locking techniques, (if it is even taught at all), but this is actually very basic information. The key is understanding the basic functions of the main joint locks (how they work, and don't work) and as was mentioned here previously, understanding the energy involved.
I wont get into some other VERY important aspects that are commonly breezed over or flat out overlooked such as set ups, trapping, integration of tactics and effective follow ups and finishes, and counters to all the above. Instead Ill focus on the precise art of understanding how to recognize a lock being applied and how to avoid and escape it.
All armbars, wrist locks, knee bars, shoulder locks, etc are only effective when certain elements are incorporated into the joint lock application. Such as, isolation of the given joint, skeletal locking, proper overloading of energy into the joint ("bottle necking of the energy"), also possibly, effective use of pressure points, among some other finer points, but these are the main ones.
These principles are essential to any effective joint lock technique. In our art of Modern Farang Mu Sul®, we use a drill called continuous joint locking to teach sensitivity in applying locks and flowing into them. This drill also helps to feel them being applied on you, and teaches the correct feeling and timing needed in order to avoid them as well as escaping them. This is taught to all of our students from white belt and on.
Here is the "SECRET" formula:
In order to defeat any joint lock, you must understand the energy involved, and work it into your favor. There are three main options:
1- Stop the energy
2- Go with the flow of the energy
3- Redirect the energy
That's it. Understanding these concepts and the techniques used in conjunction with them places us on the path to becoming virtually impossible to be locked up, and also makes your joint locks incredibly more effective as you have a greater understanding on how to apply them in the most powerful and efficient way.
Truthfully, this is very hard to convey in writing, but I hope some may catch the concept.
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba
bobster_ice
Black Belt
i would just stay in the wrist lock and think...think about how i could get out of it...and then....!SMACK!!!....they are on the ground crying,lol
Every lock has it's own set of escapes, and good ones have a point where you are stuck and tap.
First you prevent them from getting the opportunity to attempt the lock.
If that fails you read the lock they are doing and set up your escape as they set up the lock. (ex They are going for a armbar, you put your other hand on your head)
Failing that you stall completition until you can set up an escape (ex. grab hands together in a armbar) of course this opens up other options for them as well that you need to be aware of.
And if that fails you hope they made a technical error in their lock which gives you a escape (ex not pinching knees together on that armbar)
But the real trick lies in knowing what they are doing and what they need to have in order to do it and what the weaknesses of it are. Prevent one step and you prevent the lock. If you don't know the steps that is rather difficult though.
First you prevent them from getting the opportunity to attempt the lock.
If that fails you read the lock they are doing and set up your escape as they set up the lock. (ex They are going for a armbar, you put your other hand on your head)
Failing that you stall completition until you can set up an escape (ex. grab hands together in a armbar) of course this opens up other options for them as well that you need to be aware of.
And if that fails you hope they made a technical error in their lock which gives you a escape (ex not pinching knees together on that armbar)
But the real trick lies in knowing what they are doing and what they need to have in order to do it and what the weaknesses of it are. Prevent one step and you prevent the lock. If you don't know the steps that is rather difficult though.
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
another interesting point about joint locks......more often than not, when the lock is applied the affected limb is being taken away from the centreline of your body.
if you were to take a look at nikkyo (not sure of the korean term), have someone apply the lock firmly so that it is causing you some discomfort and experiment with repositioning your body to bring your hand back into your centre. it might sound complicated, but it is quite easy.
if you were to take a look at nikkyo (not sure of the korean term), have someone apply the lock firmly so that it is causing you some discomfort and experiment with repositioning your body to bring your hand back into your centre. it might sound complicated, but it is quite easy.
Escaping from a joint lock is like trying to defend against punch after someone just decked you in the face. Done correctly and quickly you're likely not going anywhere...just like if I time things correctly and throw a punch correctly I'll hit you...
Good information about going with the flow, or the energy of the lock.
A Joint lock usually immobilizes a joint at the end of a motion of movement. If the joint lock is for a break then there is usually a base which assists with with the immobilization. If you can remove the base, by your own movement or by moving it yourself, such as his hand or knee, then you are still in a position to be locked, but not immediately broke. If the Lock is with out a base then it usually take the one joint to its breaking point in motion and then the next joint up is also at or near the end of its' motion as well.
Since most times the opponent has control of only one joint, one can counter by moving the next joint up. This is accomplished by most rolls, and or going with their energy, but sometimes you nto only have to go with the energy you also have to know how to move your body, to place yourself into a position to be able to have countered the immediate lock and to also counter the hold that put you in the lock.
A Joint lock usually immobilizes a joint at the end of a motion of movement. If the joint lock is for a break then there is usually a base which assists with with the immobilization. If you can remove the base, by your own movement or by moving it yourself, such as his hand or knee, then you are still in a position to be locked, but not immediately broke. If the Lock is with out a base then it usually take the one joint to its breaking point in motion and then the next joint up is also at or near the end of its' motion as well.
Since most times the opponent has control of only one joint, one can counter by moving the next joint up. This is accomplished by most rolls, and or going with their energy, but sometimes you nto only have to go with the energy you also have to know how to move your body, to place yourself into a position to be able to have countered the immediate lock and to also counter the hold that put you in the lock.
BlackCatBonz said:
Maybe in other arts..but not in Hapkido.
Nikkyo (Aikido's 2nd Technique) is part and parcel of every Hapkido Kebonsu out there..pretty much lumped together with no special order in Sohn Mok Sool or wrist techniques.
In application..the basic version of S-lock is applied directly in front of and down the assailants center line. Imagine your extended "ki" finger is a blade and you're cutting your opponent in half. These actions result in a very tight "spiralling" that produce an immediate response. The hand is neither extended outside of your own frame nor that of the opponents. No big circles here.
There are even S-Lock variations further in which produce a "cutting-back" motion to the opponents third point in a nano-second. With this variation there is NO getting out of once you have position. Another variation is known as a "centerlock" ..which does effectively as its name implies. Our business is taking centers and holding them..you have given yours up when you grabbed me..you don't get it back.
Every one of these Nikkyo-esque techniques are employed with a minimum of body movement and "drag" on the opponent. They end up being easily recalled after practice and produce the intended results without any second guessing.
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
your hand is indeed removed from the centreline regardless if you keep it in front of the body.
you have, in effect, pronated the forearm beyond its effective range of motion. even if this lock is applied quickly and effectively, it is still quite easy to get out of, all that is required is a realignment of your body.
while it may seem impossible while the pressure is on causing intense pain, its a skill that should be practiced and one that was practiced often in the first system i studied.
you have, in effect, pronated the forearm beyond its effective range of motion. even if this lock is applied quickly and effectively, it is still quite easy to get out of, all that is required is a realignment of your body.
while it may seem impossible while the pressure is on causing intense pain, its a skill that should be practiced and one that was practiced often in the first system i studied.
Nikyo is a very tough lock to get out of. If the tori keeps the locked hand low and close the body, you are going to tap. However, if the hand drifts out and out, the uke can slide underneath and defeat the lock.
Other wrist locks are a little easier to get out of IMHO.
Other wrist locks are a little easier to get out of IMHO.
BlackCatBonz said:
On this one I think we're going to have to agree to dis-agree.
You are presuming you have the luxury of both time and space and in Hapkido we give you neither. Sounds like "tuff-talk" but it's true.
Andrew Green said:
Now thats reason enough for the "naysayers" to learn some Ju Jitsu.
jujutsu_indonesia
Black Belt
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Andrew Green said:
Dear Andrew, without a doubt, these are the best advices I've ever heard on dealing with joint-lockers.
It is as if you already gave a lesson-plan to Karateka and Taekwondoin on how to beat Japanese/Brazilian grapplers
Please share more of your wisdom! Thank you!
We share quite a bit with Hapkido in this area. I actually train alot with a Hapkido instructor in this area. Basically I agree with those saying you must "go with the energy" or "flow". This is important because if you break down every joint lock and look at the science of it, the "victum" must tense or resist at some point (maybe very minute but its there) in order for the lock to work. If you can train to completely relax your body, and truly feel where the energy is going, you can roll with it and even get a beat ahead of them and turn it on them.
I dont agree that there are locks that are 100% incapable of being escaped. In our school we do a training drill where we set up a joint lock (chin na) and start into it, then the opponent feels where its going, relaxes, yields out of it and into one of their own, this continues back and forth. Its great training to learn to relax even in the face of a lock and go with it.
One of the best tools for stoping a lock is to take their balance, which can be hard in some locks but works almost 100% when done.
7sm
I dont agree that there are locks that are 100% incapable of being escaped. In our school we do a training drill where we set up a joint lock (chin na) and start into it, then the opponent feels where its going, relaxes, yields out of it and into one of their own, this continues back and forth. Its great training to learn to relax even in the face of a lock and go with it.
One of the best tools for stoping a lock is to take their balance, which can be hard in some locks but works almost 100% when done.
7sm
marlon
Master Black Belt
Rolling works on most joint locks. Practice will teach you the sensitivity of which way to roll and which way not to roll. Simple and effective. Roll the joint or the whole body if necessary.
Respectfully,
Marlon
Respectfully,
Marlon
