miguksaram
Master of Arts
I'm surprised no one recognizes her as a columnist of TKDTimes. There was heavy discussion started by an ex-member or two on another site about how it really is a cult over there.
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These students proclaiming him the greatest, toting that other practitioners and instructors are somehow less of everything.
What is all this about?
What are some of the examples of things their followers do that seem "overboard."
People do this with specific persons as well as specific organizations started by these persons. They 'tote' others as 'somehow less of everything' because they feel by putting others down they can somehow lift themselves up. This can stem from an inferiority complex to simply not being nice people. I see this as particularly present on message boards due to distance and safety.
Continually covering for dishonorable practices by seniors. Misdirecting discussion on rewritten histories. Attacking others directly or indirectly with differing opinions on these types of individuals. Not honestly discussing their faults as well as their achievements. Condemning in others the exact things they give praise to these individuals.
Martial arts in general. This is not limited to just KMA. I have seen it in JMA and CMA's as well.Yep. Do you think personality cults are particularly rampant in Korean arts or martial arts in general?
Yep. Do you think personality cults are particularly rampant in Korean arts or martial arts in general?
WTeverlovingF is THAT all about?
I owe you a debt of thanks. A serious debt of thanks.
I have told a story for over thirty five years, never once knowing the name of the person I was speaking of.
Back in the seventies, I was at a tournament somewhere in New England. I forget where, I went to several hundred of them. There was a woman Master there, with about a hundred of her students. All I knew was their school was from Vermont.
I had never seen true cult behavior before. Read about it, sure. Seen it on TV, of course. But I had never seen it first hand. Until that tournament. A woman, a short Korean woman with high heels, was standing on a table with a hundred of her students sitting around her. They were all in gi, she was in white and red clothes. (the heels were red) She was stomping on the table and speaking to them like a TV evangelist, hands gesticulating wildly, a smile as big as as a politicians on election day. Her students were mesmerized, swaying too and fro, chanting and cheering. It seemed like I was watching the filming of a really bad movie. But not a Martial Arts movie, more like a "I'll drink the cool aide" movie. It was kind of scary. No, check that, it was really fricken scary. (and I was a cop) I have always told people that is was the strangest thing I have ever seen in Martial Arts. Hell, it was the strangest thing I've ever seen anywhere.
But I didn't know who it was. Until your post. I Googled her name, thinking, "Nah, it couldn't be her, could it?"
And there she was. For I could never forget that face. Not in a million years.
My deepest thanks for your post.
One other thing....
Her students couldn't fight worth a lick. They could chant their asses off, but that was it.
Cool...let us know the flavor of the kool-aide, when you get a chance.I signed up for her newsletter for sh*ts and giggles.
Cool...let us know the flavor of the kool-aide, when you get a chance.
I am curious what other Taekwondo practitioners think about this subject, and do they feel it is common, or not so common?
A Taekwondo instructor who sets the stage for his own glorification, creating a cult of personality around himself, by either his own actions or by the actions of his students. Students who incessantly carry out the glorification of this type of instructor, even after the instructors death. These students proclaiming him the greatest, toting that other practitioners and instructors are somehow less of everything.
What are some of the examples of things their followers do that seem "overboard."
Kind of if YK Kim told his students to do ANYTHING they would do their best to do it without giving it a second thought.
I think we have to first define what a "cult" is. I did a quick search and found this page: http://cultdefinition.com/
A cult of personality arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods, to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise.[SUP][1][/SUP] Cults of personality are usually associated with dictatorships. Sociologist Max Weber developed a tripartite classification of authority; the cult of personality holds parallels with what Weber defined as "charismatic authority". A cult of personality is similar to hero worship, except that it is established by mass media and propaganda.
puunui said:I think that the pioneers of these arts are the anti-thesis of cults in that they give their students great freedom to explore and expand their art in any direction that they choose.
puunui said:I think a lot of break off groups from taekwondo and hapkido have leaders that fall into this category, why the kukkiwon or the kha groups are bad, you don't need their certification, I'll give you mine with my signature on it instead, they are sport we are real martial arts, etc.
EGO. its all about ego and the need to feel important. In some cases its a compensation for thier inability to exsist socially within the real world.
Actually I was thinking Tae Yun Kim more than Choi, Hong-hi.
Oh I won't be drinking it. Honestly, having removed myself from a cult of personality I am trying to absorb this kind of information and expose these tactics as I think traditional martial arts can live without this kind of crap.
Looking at your screenname, I think I know what your prior organization was. I think. Let me ask you this. Do you think there is a difference between publicly recognizing and showing respect for one's teachers as well as the creators of the art that you study and cult behavior? I was raised to respect my elders, realizing that they are not always perfect people. So as to the pioneers of the arts that I study, I always discuss the positives of what they have done, because I figure that there are more than enough people out there who only focus on the negative, or what they think or consider negative, from their personal and cultural perspective. But not many realize or know about how hard they worked in creating what we all take for granted, so I talk about that.
Does that make me a cult member, like some would like to accuse me of being? Or does that show that I understand the culture from which the arts that I study originated from, where others might not?
I don't think that kind of position earns anyone the right to be abusive of people, of policy, of personal responsibility. Their talent and knowledge cannot make up for the damage they could potentially cause others.
I think in the context of religious cults, the cult is usually a breakaway group from a mainstream religion, where the leader sets himself up as some sort of prophet or messiah. The messiah rejects the teachings of the mainstream and instead probably spends an inordinate amount of time explaining or convincing members or potential members why the mainstream group is wrong, flawed, corrupt, misguided, whatever. They take control and radically change the teachings of the mainstream group from which they came, and make their own ceremonies, certificates, and that sort of thing, saying this is "better".
I think a lot of break off groups from taekwondo and hapkido have leaders that fall into this category, why the kukkiwon or the kha groups are bad, you don't need their certification, I'll give you mine with my signature on it instead, they are sport we are real martial arts, etc. I think the isolation from the mainstream and the extreme criticism of the mainstream is what sets the martial arts cult types from the rest. This is by the way, the anti thesis of the way that korean martial arts have developed, with a flexible tolerant philosophy, the great freedom that practitioners have to sculpt the art to their own interests, tastes and abilities, as well as the general feeling of inclusion which is the hallmark of both hapkido and taekwondo.
Thank you for your post. I think there is a thin line sometimes on what is hard training, and what is abusive behavior. Things that I thought may have been abusive turned out later to be actually a gift that was given to very few. There is also the boot camp theory of having to free people of the preconceptions before building them up. But somehow I don't think you are really talking about those issues.