credible certification

[Juany118]

Yes, you can have access to them, but most people don't, and it doesn't matter.

It does matter though. My "mother school" is 45 minutes away with NO traffic. I have googled dominator trainings and they are there, admitedly if you are near a major metropolitan area. Say 1 hour from Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Phoenix etc.

So it does indeed matter to some people. Maybe I am being overly modest but I can't believe I managed to be born in the exact right place and found the exact right Sifu to have unique access to such generic training.

 

[Flying Crane]

It does matter though. My "mother school" is 45 minutes away with NO traffic. I have googled dominator trainings and they are there, admitedly if you are near a major metropolitan area. Say 1 hour from Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Phoenix etc.

So it does indeed matter to some people. Maybe I am being overly modest but I can't believe I managed to be born in the exact right place and found the exact right Sifu to have unique access to such generic training.

I wonder if you and i are having two different discussions here.

Are you suggesting that a martial arts teacher needs to have some kind of governmental certification, or connections with a police program of some sort?

If so, are you saying this is true for every school from the Daycare Krotty to Worldchampion BJJ and MMA to Quentin Fong's White Crane Kung Fu taught in his backyard to five students?

 

[Juany118]

I wonder if you and i are having two different discussions here.

Are you suggesting that a martial arts teacher needs to have some kind of governmental certification, or connections with a police program of some sort?

If so, are you saying this is true for every school from the Daycare Krotty to Worldchampion BJJ and MMA to Quentin Fong's White Crane Kung Fu taught in his backyard to five students?

No. You appeared to me, and maybe I was wrong, that there wasn't a National "standard" of sorts in terms of self defense training based on

Given that martial arts in the US have no governmental oversight

After 19 years on the job combatives and self defense are synonyms. The OP wasn't asking about MA but self defense. In my experience the two can be different concepts. Based on that I was simply saying if you search you can find people who meet such a Nationally recognized standard in self defense/combatives. If this was not your initial contention then that is my error.

 

[Flying Crane]

No. You appeared to me, and maybe I was wrong, that there wasn't a National "standard" of sorts in terms of self defense training based on

After 19 years on the job combatives and self defense are synonyms. The OP wasn't asking about MA but self defense. In my experience the two can be different concepts. Based on that I was simply saying if you search you can find people who meet such a Nationally recognized standard in self defense/combatives. If this was not your initial contention then that is my error.

Ok, I think we are in the same chapter of the same book, but different page.

The OP is welcome to clarify. But I read the initial question as self-defense/martial arts, kinda lumping them together, and yes I know they are not all the same.

Martial arts as an industry for the consumer is not government regulated. Some organizations do self-regulate, but that is private and not governmental. Yes there are some programs that elements of the government weigh in on, or even license. Most martial arts schools do not have that kind of credential, and for whAt most of them do, it is not needed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok, I think we are in the same chapter of the same book, but different page.

The OP is welcome to clarify. But I read the initial question as self-defense/martial arts, kinda lumping them together, and yes I know they are not all the same.

Martial arts as an industry for the consumer is not government regulated. Some organizations do self-regulate, but that is private and not governmental. Yes there are some programs that elements of the government weigh in on, or even license. Most martial arts schools do not have that kind of credential, and for whAt most of them do, it is not needed.

This was kinda my read, and (without looking back) I think the OP asked about a universally-recognized certification. There are certainly some that are recognized across the US, but within a limited community. Without coming on MT and asking others, I wouldn't know if a given certification was even meaningful, much less reliably consistent. If I had the extra time and money, I'd probably pursue one or more for the marketing "oomph" for working with specific groups, but most consumers wouldn't have any recognition of it. It would be like telling a bank teller I have an MSCE certification (I don't, actually). She probably wouldn't even know what it was, and explaining it would just bore her. Telling her I can fix the database reporting issue that's causing her a problem is more effective.

 

[Paul_D]

Sorry but this statement is the biggest jibberish I have ever seen in the 25 years I'm involved in martial arts.

There are several stages a situation has to go through before it ends in violence, and so there are several opportnites for you to prevent it ending in violence. I have used these skills far more often to avoid/prevent/de-escalate potentially violent situaitons becoming so, than I have had to use my phsycal skills. Everyones experience is different of course.

I wouldn't train Krap Maga if you paid me, I don't know enough about systema to comment on it.

 

[Dylan9d]

There are several stages a situation has to go through before it ends in violence, and so there are several opportnites for you to prevent it ending in violence. I have used these skills far more often to avoid/prevent/de-escalate potentially violent situaitons becoming so, than I have had to use my phsycal skills. Everyones experience is different of course.[/QUOTE]

Everyone's experience is different of course but the fact remains that you previous statement was jibberish.

 

[Paul_D]

Everyone's experience is different of course but the fact remains that you previous statement was jibberish

If you are not going to explain I can't discuss it futher, just saying "this is jibberish" over and over doesn't give me anything to work with I'm afraid.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are several stages a situation has to go through before it ends in violence, and so there are several opportnites for you to prevent it ending in violence. I have used these skills far more often to avoid/prevent/de-escalate potentially violent situaitons becoming so, than I have had to use my phsycal skills. Everyones experience is different of course.

I wouldn't train Krap Maga if you paid me, I don't know enough about systema to comment on it.

And you should be aware by now, from the several discussions you've participated in, that many of us use the term "self-defense" to cover the physical defensive portion. Those other skills you mention are not, in my vernacular, "self-defense". And even if we include them, it has been discussed many times that those skills are enhanced by confidence, self-esteem, and other factors that are developed in physical self-defense classes.

You seem to like lumping all "self-defense" instructors into a single batch. That would be like lumping all "teachers" into one batch - they have a lot of different skills, education, and experience.

 

[Paul_D]

You seem to like lumping all "self-defense" instructors into a single batch. That would be like lumping all "teachers" into one batch - they have a lot of different skills, education, and experience.

Not at all, I did say "in my experience". I am commenting only on the instructors I have come accross on the self defence courses I have attended.
.

 

[hoshin1600]

my take on the OP was that he was asking about common martial arts classes and instructors that hold self defense classes.

Government Agencies such as State Agencies, DoJ and DoD will certify people, based on objective criteria, as SMEs aka "Subject Matter Experts." These are the people they will often give the contracts to for teaching members of various agencies, @ the Navy Advanced Warfare Center etc.

while an SME could be a good indicator i think you missed the mark. An SME is a way to regulate and qualify experts but only within a Government agency like those you mentioned. i dont believe they have any actual bering on civilian operations or businesses. SME's were not designed for that purpose. if the OP was asking about SME's as they apply to those agency's he came to the wrong place to ask. he should be asking his superior. but he is asking in a martial arts forum so we have to assume (until such time as he clarifies) what he is really asking is how to make a judgment on martial art based self defense classes, either he has one in mind he is thinking about joining or he is wondering how to spruce up his resume.

 

[Juany118]

my take on the OP was that he was asking about common martial arts classes and instructors that hold self defense classes.

while an SME could be a good indicator i think you missed the mark. An SME is a way to regulate and qualify experts but only within a Government agency like those you mentioned. i dont believe they have any actual bering on civilian operations or businesses. SME's were not designed for that purpose. if the OP was asking about SME's as they apply to those agency's he came to the wrong place to ask. he should be asking his superior. but he is asking in a martial arts forum so we have to assume (until such time as he clarifies) what he is really asking is how to make a judgment on martial art based self defense classes, either he has one in mind he is thinking about joining or he is wondering how to spruce up his resume.

Well there are a few things I like about SME's and as I clarified above it has to do with self defense more than martial arts.

First, if the person has SME's with a LE government agency they not only understand, in theory, what works in a rl street context, they also understand the legal issues with self defense. Very often in a MA school the legal issues aren't addressed and that, imo is problematic.

Second it about who the SMEs are with. If you have someone who has said with different agencies, Local, State and Federal LE as well as Military that shows the have a wide experience. As an example my Sifu's Sifu has all of the above, never wore a uniform. His hands on experience is largely in high end security and personal protection.

The thing for both is that you have a neutral third party with objective criteria, that is looking for the best training for their employees, vs the more typical governing body of a particular art that is as interested as getting the membership dues as they are the certificate they hand out.

In the absence of a better option it seems the only real objective standard to use.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well there are a few things I like about SME's and as I clarified above it has to do with self defense more than martial arts.

First, if the person has SME's with a LE government agency they not only understand, in theory, what works in a rl street context, they also understand the legal issues with self defense. Very often in a MA school the legal issues aren't addressed and that, imo is problematic.

Second it about who the SMEs are with. If you have someone who has said with different agencies, Local, State and Federal LE as well as Military that shows the have a wide experience. As an example my Sifu's Sifu has all of the above, never wore a uniform. His hands on experience is largely in high end security and personal protection.

The thing for both is that you have a neutral third party with objective criteria, that is looking for the best training for their employees, vs the more typical governing body of a particular art that is as interested as getting the membership dues as they are the certificate they hand out.

In the absence of a better option it seems the only real objective standard to use.

Yeah, but my sifu has none of that, and the instruction he gives in Kung fu is absolutely top notch.

 

[hoshin1600]

Well there are a few things I like about SME's and as I clarified above it has to do with self defense more than martial arts.

First, if the person has SME's with a LE government agency they not only understand, in theory, what works in a rl street context, they also understand the legal issues with self defense. Very often in a MA school the legal issues aren't addressed and that, imo is problematic.

Second it about who the SMEs are with. If you have someone who has said with different agencies, Local, State and Federal LE as well as Military that shows the have a wide experience. As an example my Sifu's Sifu has all of the above, never wore a uniform. His hands on experience is largely in high end security and personal protection.

The thing for both is that you have a neutral third party with objective criteria, that is looking for the best training for their employees, vs the more typical governing body of a particular art that is as interested as getting the membership dues as they are the certificate they hand out.

In the absence of a better option it seems the only real objective standard to use.

I understand what your saying and I agree that to train under someone with an SME would be great and something that would be a plus, but to use that as a defining criteria would be to discount 95%of what is available. So is your position that anyone without an SME is teaching crap? I don't think so.
To use an analogy it would be like saying the only good cooks are the ones who trained classically in France. I just don't think there is a good option or criteria to judge. And even with such a criteria good or bad can still be subjective.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I understand what your saying and I agree that to train under someone with an SME would be great and something that would be a plus, but to use that as a defining criteria would be to discount 95%of what is available. So is your position that anyone without an SME is teaching crap? I don't think so.
To use an analogy it would be like saying the only good cooks are the ones who trained classically in France. I just don't think there is a good option or criteria to judge. And even with such a criteria good or bad can still be subjective.

I don't think he's saying it's an exclusionary criterion. He's saying it's something that could be used to identify someone as a good choice. Lack of it doesn't necessarily mean someone's a bad choice. Most of us who teach self-defense and martial arts have never had any significant interface with those groups, so their certifications wouldn't be available to us. I know of an instructor who has worked with LEO in three different states over 3 decades teaching DT in their state academies. I don't think he carries a SME designation, but I could be wrong about that.

 

[Juany118]

I understand what your saying and I agree that to train under someone with an SME would be great and something that would be a plus, but to use that as a defining criteria would be to discount 95%of what is available. So is your position that anyone without an SME is teaching crap? I don't think so.
To use an analogy it would be like saying the only good cooks are the ones who trained classically in France. I just don't think there is a good option or criteria to judge. And even with such a criteria good or bad can still be subjective.

@gpseymour summed it up for me. If you are concerned about some sort of objective qualification, it's the only one I can see as truly objective. There are other things you can look for as well. Most of my main Sifu's SMEs are in not MA criteria so irrelevant but I still trust him to teach me well. I was just answering to a specific criteria.