Creationism and Evolution

Discussion in 'The Study' started by BlueDragon1981, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. BlueDragon1981

    BlueDragon1981 Brown Belt

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    Now I am warning everyone now this topic can get heated. I ask everyone to respect everyone else's opinion here. I'm sure the mods will agree with that. Don't say you are stupid because you believe creationism. Or you are stupid because you believe evolution. It is not needed. If you cannot argue without making personal attacks then leave it at the tips of your fingers and don't type.

    This topic came up at our sunday dinner. (Although it is really a late lunch). My family every other Sunday goes up to my grandparents and partakes in a meal together now most the time I stay out of any squabbles because it just makes everyone mad. I'm more of a peaceful person. However my aunt proceeded to tell people they needed to go to this sunday school and listen to this preacher about evolution. Saying that we did not come from a rock. I spoke up and said that is not what all evolutionist believe and she then started getting peived because I spoke up against it. This is where I get mad a people from each religion. When they knowing they are of influence go and only talk about extreme ends of a theory. I never once in my conversation said I believed one way or another. I simply stated it is being twisted in an attempt for people to find falts in it. As are religions. She finally just said whatever i am right and you are wrong. Now I simply said you are entitled to your opinion and as are others to theirs. I did not say does your preacher have scientific proof of god. Earlier she had mentioned he backed it up by scientific proof. I did not say it but I should have said did you witness this proof. I was not arguing for evolution which is what she though I was doing. Just because I was not in that preachers line of view I was wrong. I dismissed it because once people get a conviction like this in there head they often don't listen.

    However my personal belief and opinion is both creationism and evolution have something to offer. I for one am not at one end or the other. I am someone that has a different style of "religion". It is actually hard to explain but that is not my point here. Why is it that people cannot be open to both. Why does it always have to be one or the other. To me we not see any of it proven past a theory. We will never have "proof" of any one of these issues. Why get so upset about either. Am I automatically wrong by arguing. I argue against both points, because I do that some would say I'm misguided and you have to believe one or the other. I say I don't have to believe anything.

    Here is a link I have found. I could not find any that argued both sides. So this one is kind of calm compared to the extremists on both sides. Oh and I have found a lot of things about Darwin treating Africans as not "human" but these people never mention how Christians once treated certian groups of people. As for what should be taught in schools. I say either both or neither.

    http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/04/pope_benedict_b.html
     
  2. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Actually it was hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional creatures searching for the Question corresponding to the Ultimate Answer of Life, the Universe and Everything that are responsible for the whole mess :D

    Sorry, couldn't resist, I will go now
     
  3. Brother John

    Brother John Senior Master

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    yet we think that digital watches are a pretty neat idea!!!

    ....where's your towel?

    Your Brother
    Zaphod...
    ...er...
    John
     
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  4. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    But seriously - my biggest question is how the fossil record is justified.
     
  5. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    :lfao:

    You mean the most massively useful thing an interstellar hitchhiker can have

    Well I keep mine in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard

    Don't Panic
     
  6. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    I believe in both... yes, both... the things that were created were also created to evolve as time goes on.
     
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  7. girlbug2

    girlbug2 Master of Arts

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    That is a very eloquent way of putting it! "Created to evolve".

    I think something similar but never thought to phrase it that way.

    The way I see it, the biblical account of creationism is true, but I doubt that God used magical flourishes to set everything into being. As in, "poof! There's the Earth. Poof! Here's the vegetation." Etc. More likely evolotion was the mechanism by which He created many species of life (but not all).Somehow I don't see God as being all that Poof-y.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2008
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  8. BlueDragon1981

    BlueDragon1981 Brown Belt

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    That is one of the best statements I've ever read.....lol.
     
  9. kailat

    kailat Green Belt

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    I would like to add my own theory and thats all it is, nothing else nothing more.. It could be as crazy as any other belief out there. After all nothing is "PROVEN" in any religous belief.. All are just theories.

    GOD: a being so omnipotent that we as humans do not have the right to even see or know him/her/it... He is the alpha and omega the beginning and the end!

    could it be that GOD himself is that of alien life form? There have been however proven or at least "eye witnessess" of Alien's and UFO's. Although the govt has deemed all who claim this as "CRAZY" but why? aren't there unearthed scientific proofs that at some point in our civilization in the egyptian, mayan, incan, european, ancestories have some sort of outer space or life beyond earth?

    The bible was supposedly written by many a man. There was the OLDTEST that was written BC (before christ) with tons of weird stories that are hard to belive. but who's to say during that time GOD used these times as testing phase. God used aliens or some form of life being just another term for ALIEN or Intelligent life form (ILF).

    So in order for us to evolve man destroyed itself because GOD was new at this developmnt thing. There are many books of the bible that are missing and or never made in print today. http://www.thetruthaboutdavinci.com/missing-books-of-the-bible.html

    Could GOD be a larger entity of a more intelligent life form just using us as an experiment? As the bible was printed because man had to have printed the bible to hand out to the masses.. Anytime MAN is in charge of anything over time its bound to be mischeif or some form of hidden agenda thru many secrets societies etc..

    There is a spirit world that we cannot explain and we have to wnder why these so called spirits run thru the unknown! Is there a hidden answer to all this? Is religion really just something passed down from a higher being to see how we as a more intelligent species after the birth and death of Christ (AD) to see how we as a species develope over a long period of time. As we go into the 21st century we are so strong we communicate and nothing is beyond us as a WHOLE now... not just a race, or people but as a WORLD!! this is a smaller picture in a larger frame!! Something will break soon and I have a feeling life is more meaningless than we make it out to be..

    If there is really a heaven and hell there needs to be more proof of it.. Im not so convinced that either exist.. But i am convinced that there is a "GOD" just not sure what exactly his positon is and what he expects of us.

    Christianity was supposed to be a way of LAW of a more civilized group of people. What better way for a civilization to succeed and not follow the path of those of the old testament!! start a new civilization, give forth a set of rules and a belief system that people can trust and believe in and this way they can grow as a civilization and see if they can do more good than bad.. sure that all follows the premis of the BIBLE but there is something missing.. Something just seems to be missing in the whole picture.. EVOLUTION? NO I DON"T THINK SO.. CREATION! to some degree but there's more.. we are not given all the answers. Someone somewhere knows the truth but its not being put in our hands.. WHY??
     
  10. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

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    Science should surely be taught in schools. Evolution has been shown to have a scientific basis that is undenyable.

    Creationism is horribly bad science. I'm not even sure creationsim is scriptual. There are those who surround the scriptures with ungodly amounts of speculation which, in turn, become accepted as by some as fundamental beliefs. Why people try to read more into the scriptures than is there, I don't know.
     
  11. hardheadjarhead

    hardheadjarhead Senior Master

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    Creationism is a purely Judeo-Christian take on the creation of the universe. It isn't science. It isn't just bad science, it isn't science at all.

    Should it be taught in public schools? Not in science class, certainly.

    The problem with creationism is that it doesn't merely dispute evolution...it disputes all of biology, astrophysics, geology, geophysics, chemistry, meteorology, astronomy, anthropology, archaeology. Did I miss any?

    The issue of whether it should be taught in schools or not has been settled, legally, as being unconstitutional. Most recently, in 2005, Kitzmiller vs. Dover ruled that the latest permutation of creationism, "Intelligent Design," is a violation of precedent establishing that creationism is a violation of the 1st Amendment.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/kitzmiller_v_dover.html

    I personally think that teaching about creationism in a social studies class is acceptable, as it is a part of the current American "culture wars." In a comparative religion class I could see it studied as well, alongside the Hindu creation myth stating that in the beginning the universe was a vast sea, with a curled cobra floating in it and cradling the sleeping Lord Vishnu. We could teach the Islamic creation story of man, which has us fashioned out of a clot of blood.

    How many here would approve of teaching these two perspectives in science class?

    If we teach alternatives to evolution in science class, we need to teach them all, correct? Or do we bias ourselves to an uninformed majority opinion, what we were taught by our social group, or that which pleases us?

    Shall we also teach alchemy? Astrology? Divination? Water dousing? The concept of telekinesis? Shouldn't be have students try and experiment with perpetual motion machines in order to get "free energy?"

    Regarding those, shouldn't we "teach the controversy?"

    No. Because they aren't science.



    Regards,


    Steve
     
  12. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    Science should be taught at school, it's where I got my love for it at least. Science teaches things other than how things are made but also teaches how things work and why.
    But creationism should be taught at Sunday school and the difference between the two should be taught at home.

    If done right a child grows up with enough information to make an intelligent decision on their own as to what they believe or not believe.
     
  13. Cirdan

    Cirdan Senior Master

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    Keep the creation myths out of sience class. It has even less to do there than teaching that the earth is flat.
     
  14. Brian S

    Brian S Purple Belt

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    Yep! Couldn't agree more! Home is where the values and morals should be taught more than anywhere else.
     
  15. bostonbomber

    bostonbomber Orange Belt

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    I fully concur with many in this forum that creationism should be kept out the science class. This is not a judgment about creationism: anything that can not be scrutinized by the scientific method should be kept out of the science class. This is not limited to the origin of life.
     
  16. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    I don't understand why it is that one story that is so important to some people to be taught in schools. Why aren't we teaching that there was a massive flood that eradicated mankind? Or why not that you can survive in the belly of a whale unharmed for weeks at a time? Or how about that people should just go walking into Lion Dens? Or killing giants with sling shots?

    The creation story is only one allegory in the old testament and yet so much of our population focuses on that one as being important as being taught. I don't understand why they aren't clamoring for the others to be taught. Personally, I see it as much more ridiculous when put in that context.
     
  17. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    It's also mostly an American thing. In Europe they accept evolution, for the most part.

    That's worth repeating. Creationism and science are totally separate and IMO mutually exclusive ways of viewing the world. Many people do try to weld them together, of course.


    Yup. It also asks things of evolution--it's more anti-theory than theory, after all--that no one asks of other theories. Ask a creationist why things fall when you drop them. How does that dropped rock know where the center of the earth is? The gravitational (and electromagnetic) field is a convenient mathematical fiction that lets one maintain the illusion of conservation of momentum. What is spacetime that it may be warped? (Don't start asking what mass is--that leads to the new collider in Europe which is trying to answer that question.) Gravity is poorly understood theoretically, yet people fly in planes.
     
  18. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    It all boils down to faith. Again and again things in the Bible are items to question your faith, your belief that these things you read are true. We who choose to believe are tested all the time on the level of faith we have. It's not only just believing but what we do/say that helps define the level of faith we have, hence the phrase "faith without works is dead..."
    Yet our greatest gift is our ability to choose (free will) to believe or not believe, as well as our choice on how/what we believe.
    It is wrong, to say that a person who chooses to believe is right/wrong just as it is wrong to say a person who choose NOT to believe is right/wrong. It's an individualized and personal thing.

    People get shaky when their beliefs are challenged, hence the arguments, fights, name-calling and animosity towards the other(s). This is on both sides of the fence.

    Science has proven a lot of things and it's idiotic to disbelieve it because it's on fact. However; science has failed repeatedly to DISPROVE the existence of a creator/God and it probably will never be able to because it's on faith.

    Maybe it sounds like I take the easy way out by saying (earlier) that I believe in both creation and evolution... but... that's my choice... my right... my free will to do so.

    :asian:
     
  19. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    I believe in both, and I'm sorry Arni/HHJH... I don't think that if you believe a supreme being created the universe you can't believe in things like gravity... that the silliest thing I ever heard.

    But I'm going to oversimplify a couple basic theory's AGAIN:

    You have nothing. For whatever reason, nothing SUDDENLY EXPLODES and turns into stuff! Then, while stuff is spinning and cooling a precise lightning strike happens to hit just the right combination of goo, which suddenly forms a protein string (just going off of what is theoretically possible in a lab, so bear with me) which later mutates into a life form, which, subject to random mutation over the course of billions of years defy everything we we are taught about things like, survival of the fittest, and not only mutates into BILLIONS of other forms of life, but super-complex lifeforms that are not as fit to survive and/or thrive... going so far as to require multiple sexes to have evolved at the same time in the same place for an extremely large number of those lifeforms to thrive. Yet despite all that here we are.

    Or

    We have a divine being, or an Alien Inteligence, or somthing, that placed everything like legos or Sim City.

    *Shrug*

    Now, Thats not to say I don't beleive things evolve, we have evidence of evolution: But on the science end, What we lack, is solid proof that a fish can become a chimpanzee, or that empty space, devoid of air and matter can explode and create matter. Theorys, to be sure, but lacking strong evidence to support them. Even when you see things like Tiktaalik fossils, the science people are very quick to go "oooh, look this is a fish with legs, it's clearly an intermediate in the fossil record proof of evolution" while ignoring the simple possibility: it was a fish with legs. Always was. (Actually one article I read on the subject of the find suggested the skeleton was more crocodile like, so perhaps it IS proof of evolution, amongst crocodiles)

    I especially love this quote:

    So, they went in with the idea they would find some, so of course, they found something new and its their transitional fossil. Doesn't seem very objective to me.

    In fact, How do we know it wasn't a transitional state between the larval, and adult states similar to a Mexican salamander? (the kind that spend almost all of their lives in that state) It would explain the legs, gills and lungs, without being a "missing link". But no. It MUST be the missing link.

     
  20. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    I agree with every word that you said! I suppose this is something that I even struggled with when I was religious. I could never accept that all of the stories were based on fact. I believe them as allegories of how to behave and stories with morals - and of course, a part of just being written by a culture and time period when people did not have other explanations for things and depended on religion to explain the things they did not understand. I do see many of them as a test of faith though.

    What anyone believe and has faith in is a completely internal thing and between them and god. But these things do not have a place in modern science courses. Science is not based on faith, it is based on fact and provable, testable ideas.

    Now - I DO strongly believe that kids should be taught about opposing theories. I see nothing wrong with a survey of religions class or a class in which multiple theories are covered. But in a science class, creationism simply does not belong.123
     

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