conversation is sparring not kata.

[Tony Dismukes]

I learned about the OODA loop in basic training. It's a useful concept.

Just to be clear, it does not mean that in the heat of a fight you have to be running down a little mental checklist "I've completed step 2, so now I'm on to step 3 where I get to decide." You run through the loop in a time scale appropriate to the situation, which could be months for a business campaign or a split second for a life and death physical confrontation.

I do think that people can and do miss out on the OODA loop in many real life situations, but as Chris notes, the results are likely to be bad.

If you fail to observe or orient, then you are acting without awareness or understanding of what is going on.
(Imagine a soon-to-be mugging victim who fails to notice a pair of potential assailants moving into position around him or who notices but fails to comprehend the threat.)
If you fail to decide, then you will typically keep moving along whatever path you were already on, whether or not that is appropriate to the situation.
If you fail to act (as often occurs when a victim of violence "freezes up"), then you are paralyzed.
If you fail to loop (i.e. continue the process) then you will be locked into whatever action you committed to initially, even though it may no longer be a wise course of action. (Imagine that you are beating the crap out of your initial assailant and fail to notice or react to the fact that his six buddies are coming up to help him out.)

When you see a situation that was handled disastrously, it's not that unusual to realize that someone missed one or more of the OODA loop steps.

In the case of a skilled professional dealing with a situation which requires split-second reactions (like a bouncer in a fight or a race car driver on the track) the loop may be largely subconscious, but it is still there.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

A Monkey Dance isn't a consensual fight… kinda the opposite… it's a display, used to intimidate or avoid conflict, and is rarely symmetrical itself. A consensual fight in this case would be a match fight, whether a challenge in a bar, spilling out to the parking lot, or a sporting form (such as MMA), or anything of the kind.

Yeah, sorry. I was using that as shorthand for "a consensual fight arising out of the Monkey Dance." The Monkey Dance may be used in an attempt to avoid conflict, but realistically it is just as likely to escalate matters.

My bad for not being clear.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I just wanted to mention that you can have very productive sparring sessions where the parties involved are operating with different rule sets. When I teach, I very often assign each partner a role with specific limitations and/or objectives. Often this gives better results than purely open-ended sparring.

My teacher says that, and often you should be working on a few things you don't mention. It brings a little mystery to the conversation.

 

[Transk53]

My teacher says that, and often you should be working on a few things you don't mention. It brings a little mystery to the conversation.

Would that not be just initiative. You like listen and digest, then upon you're findings. Yeah, maybe a little simplistic here

 

[drop bear]

Then you have no idea of how I do things. I question constantly… every time I go through a kata, I'm ensuring it's optimised on both the attacker and defender side, which is done by constantly questioning and checking the technique itself. I also constantly test to see if things need redefining… but frankly, I've been at this some 2 and a half decades or more, so most of the basic questions (that you're dealing with) are well and truly behind me now. That doesn't mean I've stopped questioning, it means that the questions you're bringing up are already answered.

how many times have you changed kata? Seen an issue with it and fixed it?

this is an important question. Because it decides if you are training via dogma.

 

[drop bear]

My teacher says that, and often you should be working on a few things you don't mention. It brings a little mystery to the conversation.

sparring should often be like that because although it feels natural to work on your strengths. You also need to work on your weaknesses.

and in sparring that can cost you a punch in the head.

 

[drop bear]

Of course the OODA loop applies to sparring… what on earth makes you think it doesn't?!?

That old hack that street isn't sport. Here is another example that being good at one makes you good at the other.

 

[drop bear]

No, I'm not. I'm using facts to correct your misapplication of various terms.

no you are just saying facts. An actual fact would have a source.

 

[drop bear]

I learned about the OODA loop in basic training. It's a useful concept.

Just to be clear, it does not mean that in the heat of a fight you have to be running down a little mental checklist "I've completed step 2, so now I'm on to step 3 where I get to decide." You run through the loop in a time scale appropriate to the situation, which could be months for a business campaign or a split second for a life and death physical confrontation.

I do think that people can and do miss out on the OODA loop in many real life situations, but as Chris notes, the results are likely to be bad.

If you fail to observe or orient, then you are acting without awareness or understanding of what is going on.
(Imagine a soon-to-be mugging victim who fails to notice a pair of potential assailants moving into position around him or who notices but fails to comprehend the threat.)
If you fail to decide, then you will typically keep moving along whatever path you were already on, whether or not that is appropriate to the situation.
If you fail to act (as often occurs when a victim of violence "freezes up"), then you are paralyzed.
If you fail to loop (i.e. continue the process) then you will be locked into whatever action you committed to initially, even though it may no longer be a wise course of action. (Imagine that you are beating the crap out of your initial assailant and fail to notice or react to the fact that his six buddies are coming up to help him out.)

When you see a situation that was handled disastrously, it's not that unusual to realize that someone missed one or more of the OODA loop steps.

In the case of a skilled professional dealing with a situation which requires split-second reactions (like a bouncer in a fight or a race car driver on the track) the loop may be largely subconscious, but it is still there.

yeah. Look these things are a training aid though rather than an end in itself. And in general i am not a fan of using these concepts. The ooda loop isn't bad as it has a use. But there is a trend to make yourself sound more of an expert than you are by using this jargon.

those stupid colors of awareness fall right in to this. Knowing whether i am in condition red or black is a small comfort if someone is really trying to mess me up.

anyway. Back to understanding the loop. Properly getting that process is neuroscience. Which is more than most people need for practical application.

The Neuroscience of Decision Making The Kavli Foundation

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, sorry. I was using that as shorthand for "a consensual fight arising out of the Monkey Dance." The Monkey Dance may be used in an attempt to avoid conflict, but realistically it is just as likely to escalate matters.

My bad for not being clear.

except a challenge at a bar can be predatory.

i have even seen strategic ambushes especially by gang members.

eg.
we would have a fight in a club,separate tem put one out the front one out the back.

the guy out the front is getting all monkey dance. The guy out the back is ringing 20 of his friends who will arrive in five minutes with bats and hospitalise the guy.

salt night club was a monkey dance. And i thing 3 people got macheted to death and one guy drowned.

 

[drop bear]

Three feared dead after machete attack - theage.com.au

salt night club fight.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, sorry. I was using that as shorthand for "a consensual fight arising out of the Monkey Dance." The Monkey Dance may be used in an attempt to avoid conflict, but realistically it is just as likely to escalate matters.

My bad for not being clear.

Okay, cool… that, I agree with for the most part. I'd still class the Monkey Dance as primarily about establishing dominance, which might (if dominance isn't established by getting the other side to back down, become submissive etc) escalate into a fight… which, due to the opportunity to escape during the rest of the ritual, can be classed as a "mutually consensual fight".

My teacher says that, and often you should be working on a few things you don't mention. It brings a little mystery to the conversation.

I'm not sure that's what Tony was getting at, though… he wasn't talking about working on your own, individual game plan, with the aim of surprising your training partner, he was talking about deliberately setting up a free-response training method (a form of sparring) that is asymmetrical… in order to work on specific skills and tactics (not chosen by the individual, but by the training structure).

In other words, you might have a training structure where the "defender" has the aim of escape through a crowd, and the "attackers" don't actually attack, but simply provide obstacles… or that the "defender" has an aim of de-escalating, while the attacker tries to escalate from a verbal threat to a physical one… or, well, anything else.

how many times have you changed kata? Seen an issue with it and fixed it?

this is an important question. Because it decides if you are training via dogma.

I honestly couldn't tell you… I'm always refining my understanding of them, to the point that I'm currently going through the ones I'll be teaching at the first class of the year to see if there's anything to adjust/improve. So… hundreds? Thousands? Who knows…

Of course, when you get to your question of "seen an issue and fixed it", well, that's a bit different… what I've "fixed", really, is my understanding of them.

Again, I really don't think you get what kata training actually is… not that that's actually anything to do with the topic of the thread… again…

That old hack that street isn't sport. Here is another example that being good at one makes you good at the other.

What? The OODA loop is the process of decision making… it applies everywhere you make a decision… it has nothing at all to do with "sport vs street", or anything of the kind… I have no idea where you got that idea from. The decision making will be different for each, but that's based on the first two parts of the OODA loop… Observe and Orient (to the context/situation)… so the decision being made will be different… but you still apply the OODA loop.

Seriously, there is absolutely nothing in the construct that shows anything about it being "good at one making you good at the other"… it's a construct to understand a process… and, frankly, you don't seem to get what that actually is.

no you are just saying facts. An actual fact would have a source.

What are you after as a "source"? The OODA loop, which has been linked to a number of times by Ballen, written out again by Transk? The Monkey Dance, which we'll get to your errors in in a bit, which you can easily google yourself? The way kata training works, which you've openly denied and refused to listen to any and all explanations of?

I'll put it this way… anything that requires facts has back-up, much of which is provided in this thread (and elsewhere). Anything that is an explanation of an understanding (such as the reality of kata training), the explanation itself is the back-up, further supported by the experiences and evidence (observational) of those telling you what it is.

You really don't' seem to get how evidence works. I mean… if I'm "just saying facts", then you're accepting that they are facts… in which case, I don't need to provide further sources to show that the facts are facts… they're facts.

yeah. Look these things are a training aid though rather than an end in itself. And in general i am not a fan of using these concepts. The ooda loop isn't bad as it has a use. But there is a trend to make yourself sound more of an expert than you are by using this jargon.

those stupid colors of awareness fall right in to this. Knowing whether i am in condition red or black is a small comfort if someone is really trying to mess me up.

anyway. Back to understanding the loop. Properly getting that process is neuroscience. Which is more than most people need for practical application.

The Neuroscience of Decision Making The Kavli Foundation

No.

Neuroscience is a way of mapping the internal (biological) process the brain goes through when making a decision… in other words, it's really just a way of mapping what happens during the OODA loop itself.

Frankly, if you don't want to use the terminology, that's fine… it's your prerogative… but that doesn't change the very, very simple fact that these are simply constructs to allow people to better understand things.

except a challenge at a bar can be predatory.

Well, yeah…

i have even seen strategic ambushes especially by gang members.

eg.
we would have a fight in a club,separate tem put one out the front one out the back.

the guy out the front is getting all monkey dance. The guy out the back is ringing 20 of his friends who will arrive in five minutes with bats and hospitalise the guy.

salt night club was a monkey dance. And i thing 3 people got macheted to death and one guy drowned.

Well, no.

That's not a Monkey Dance. That's a distraction, which is a completely different tactic.

Three feared dead after machete attack - theage.com.au

salt night club fight.

… and… that shows what exactly to do with this thread, the topic, or anything else? It's a news report on a situation you claim was a Monkey Dance (it wasn't), which has no mention whatsoever of anything close to it, or how it all actually went down… and none of this is anything at all to do with the topic of what conversation is….

 

[Transk53]

except a challenge at a bar can be predatory.

i have even seen strategic ambushes especially by gang members.

eg. we would have a fight in a club,separate tem put one out the front one out the back.

the guy out the front is getting all monkey dance. The guy out the back is ringing 20 of his friends who will arrive in five minutes with bats and hospitalise the guy.

salt night club was a monkey dance. And i thing 3 people got macheted to death and one guy drowned.

The same over here. One of the reasons I just to really not like venues with one main transfer point, IE just the front door area and with a fire exit very close by. One venue, now a Vodka Revolution, has a garden area. One big bin area and driveway to eject people from. Really easy when you can funnel them which ever way you want. Absolute nightmare pending when you have to hold one group. There is always one in a first group that will try to get back in the venue, or try and kick off when some door staff are otherwise engaged. Mind you, can be fun

 

[drop bear]

You really don't' seem to get how evidence works. I mean… if I'm "just saying facts", then you're accepting that they are facts… in which case, I don't need to provide further sources to show that the facts are facts… they're facts.

i thought you were saying facts to make it sound cooler than opinion.

 

[drop bear]

… and… that shows what exactly to do with this thread, the topic, or anything else? It's a news report on a situation you claim was a Monkey Dance (it wasn't), which has no mention whatsoever of anything close to it, or how it all actually went down… and none of this is anything at all to do with the topic of what conversation is….

there is mis conception of what goes on in a fight and the motivations behind it.

in my opinion.

monkey dance is generally used poorly as a concept.

i didn't raise the monkey dance. So as a derail it was not mine.

 

[drop bear]

I'll put it this way… anything that requires facts has back-up, much of which is provided in this thread (and elsewhere). Anything that is an explanation of an understanding (such as the reality of kata training), the explanation itself is the back-up, further supported by the experiences and evidence (observational) of those telling you what it is.

no it really isn't.

 

[drop bear]

What? The OODA loop is the process of decision making… it applies everywhere you make a decision… it has nothing at all to do with "sport vs street", or anything of the kind… I have no idea where you got that idea from. The decision making will be different for each, but that's based on the first two parts of the OODA loop… Observe and Orient (to the context/situation)… so the decision being made will be different… but you still apply the OODA loop.

good decision making as described in the links can be produced by good training in sparring.

without the need to over analyze it.

 

[drop bear]

Of course, when you get to your question of "seen an issue and fixed it", well, that's a bit different… what I've "fixed", really, is my understanding of them.

obviously you would change the kata as your martial art evolves?

 

[drop bear]

Neuroscience is a way of mapping the internal (biological) process the brain goes through when making a decision… in other words, it's really just a way of mapping what happens during the OODA loop itself.

no it isn't.
Neuroscience - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Chris Parker]

i thought you were saying facts to make it sound cooler than opinion.

No. I don't say anything to sound "cooler"… I say them because they're accurate. When I say things are facts, I mean that they are facts.

there is mis conception of what goes on in a fight and the motivations behind it.

in my opinion.

The article didn't have anything to do with that, though… there was no mention of motivations, or anything else. So, again, what was the point?

monkey dance is generally used poorly as a concept.

When I see some evidence that you understand the concept, I'll take what you think on board.

i didn't raise the monkey dance. So as a derail it was not mine.

I was asking what the article you linked, which you took a new post to do, with nothing else, had to do with the topic or discussion… I mean, I know you didn't bring the Monkey Dance up, that wasn't the point… it was that much of this thread, including most of your posts, are nothing to do with the actual topic you started.

no it really isn't.

As I said, I really don't think you get how evidence works.

good decision making as described in the links can be produced by good training in sparring.

without the need to over analyze it.

Of course it can be produced by sparring… or any of a thousand other methods… it's simply a way of understanding the process of making a decision, which can be largely unconscious or automatic… do you really think that sparring is in any way different or unique in this sense? Or that this is anything to do with the topic?

obviously you would change the kata as your martial art evolves?

Yeah… no. You're not really getting the way this works… it changes as my understanding and development in the art evolves.

no it isn't.
Neuroscience - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Yeah, look, I was trying to parse some kind of meaning out of your phrasing, which was, for the record: "anyway. Back to understanding the loop. Properly getting that process is neuroscience. Which is more than most people need for practical application."

I mean, that, in itself, doesn't actually make much sense… I have no idea what you actually meant by "properly getting that process is neuroscience"… Neuroscience is a field of study… so, no… as a result, I felt that you meant something like "properly understanding the process (of making a decision) is (explained by this area of) neuroscience". If you were saying that all of neuroscience is about understanding decision making, well, no… it's about understanding a lot of different things, all based around the nervous system, and the brain… of course, as I thought you were addressing it only in relation to the OODA loop, that is where I was aiming my comments…

Let's put it this way… if you were saying that neuroscience explains the OODA loop without using the construct of the OODA loop, then no, it doesn't… it maps the way the OODA loop affects and operates in the nervous system and the brain… if you were saying that neuroscience (as a whole) means you don't need the construct of the OODA loop, then no, it doesn't… neuroscience is the study of the nervous system, which does include aspects of psychology, but is not psychology itself, meaning that the construct operates independent of, and in alignment with, the study of neuroscience….

Neuroscience and the OODA loop construct neither substitute each for the other, nor operate independently… the OODA loop is a psychological construct (understanding of the process) of decision making, and neuroscience explains what's happening during that process. Kay?