conversation is sparring not kata.

[geezer]

In sparring you have an idea that you can test against another person. Who may have the same idea. Or a different one.

it works or it doesn't. If it doesn't you can discard it or tweek it. Retest the idea with more sparring. Trial and error.

kata is given to you by a person of authority requiring you to follow their instructions. Because it is the way it is done and the way everybody else is doing it.

it might work it might not. That is not the point. It is not up to you to test the theory or disagree. It is up to you to be educated and follow the movements as instructed.

but that is not conversation.

Tony already covered this pretty thoroughly, but to put it very simply, I'd say that forms, as I train them, are not unlike verbal recitation, while sparring is comparable to debate. Both are valid methods of learning. Verbally, recitation of great works provides a model to follow, while debate allows us to engage with others and test our ideas and logic against theirs. My training requires both methods ...and others as well.

 

[geezer]

@ Drop Bear: There is sparring between buddies or well intentioned acquaintances directed at both parties learning from the experience. Then again, there are those occasions when you enter into what you think will be such a productive session, and your opponent has such an attitude of disdain for your skill and experience that you can either continue and engage in a fight, or bow out and seek another partner to work with.

On a thread when someone responds to your OP with, "Oh, dear lord..." I would guess that you are dealing with the verbal equivalent of the second scenario above. Really not worth pursuing. You won't "win", and the thread will go down the toilet.

 

[Touch Of Death]

@ Drop Bear: There is sparring between buddies or well intentioned acquaintances directed at both parties learning from the experience. Then again, there are those occasions when you enter into what you think will be such a productive session, and your opponent has such an attitude of disdain for your skill and experience that you can either continue and engage in a fight, or bow out and seek another partner to work with.

On a thread when someone responds to your OP with, "Oh, dear lord..." I would guess that you are dealing with the verbal equivalent of the second scenario above. Really not worth pursuing. You won't "win", and the thread will go down the toilet.

I usually reserve, "Oh Dear Lord" for the videos.

 

[drop bear]

@ Drop Bear: There is sparring between buddies or well intentioned acquaintances directed at both parties learning from the experience. Then again, there are those occasions when you enter into what you think will be such a productive session, and your opponent has such an attitude of disdain for your skill and experience that you can either continue and engage in a fight, or bow out and seek another partner to work with.

On a thread when someone responds to your OP with, "Oh, dear lord..." I would guess that you are dealing with the verbal equivalent of the second scenario above. Really not worth pursuing. You won't "win", and the thread will go down the toilet.

yeah but what are you going to do?

this is kind of my point. That those who fire out those comments should not be so surprised at the response.

because conversation is sparring.

 

[drop bear]

MAMA Martial Arts Mommy Archives Sparring is a Conversation Not a Monologue

 

[Chris Parker]

poor sparring etiquette is what gets threads locked. It moves from a conversation to a fight. Or in this case a lecture.

No, "poor sparring etiquette" is not what gets threads locked… multiple reported posts is what gets threads locked. And those reports come from a range of sources and reasons… there's nothing about "sparring etiquette" at all… as, well, this ain't sparring. I'm not here to spar with you. Bluntly, I don't consider that you're in a position to "spar" with me… or that you have the requisite skills and knowledge base to attempt it.

Look. that's not an attack on you at all… simply an observation of where we're both coming from. But, importantly, disagreeing isn't a fight… correcting isn't fighting either. A lecture? Maybe… but, to be frank again, sometimes that's required.

interesting that you are giving me instruction from your position of authority. As opposed to having a conversation.

You're being corrected. That's not going to be a conversation. It's going to be a statement made with the aim of improving your understanding, rather than to say "hey, here's an alternative way of thinking"… it's simply not appropriate, when it all comes down to it.

so lets look at kata. I don't know how you do it. But when I did it. My instructor,the person in authority. Gave instructions that we followed. It was not the place to work out an idea.

And that's the very beginning of how you learn kata… again, the very beginning of how you learn it. It's hardly the entirety of kata the same way that learning to say "hello, goodbye, where is the train station?" is the entirety of learning a language. If you didn't progress beyond that in your classes, either due to time in training, or due to the lower level of the training you received, it really doesn't change the fact that kata training is a lot more than you have suggested or written.

like the conversation we are having now.

This, believe it or not, isn't necessarily intended as a conversation. You presented an idea (for the fourth or fifth time now), and it's been demonstrated that it is lacking by most contributors. We haven't asked for counters.

emotionally invested in their debates possibly?

for me i try to play the ball rather than the man. This thread has come from people playing the man. Which is generally considered pretty low class even in a debate.

No, you play the man constantly. You constantly attempt to have a range of little digs aimed at a number of posters, and what they've told you (including myself), in an attempt to mock them by trying to twist their words back. Sadly, you also constantly miss the point of what they've told you.

I'll leave it to you what level of class that is.

Kata is a waste of time IMO. If you enjoy performing it, more power to you. Personally, I'm very happy that I chose a style that doesn't utilize it as a training tool.

Er… okay… kinda besides the point of what's being discussed here, but glad to see you can bring your issues across as well…

And yeah, debates are a form of verbal sparring. Always have been.

Yes, debates can be. There hasn't been any question on that. The question is whether or not conversation (not debate) is "sparring".

the forms are like a notation made about your training. Once it is settled you know what works. You collate you findings into kata.

Hmm… partly, but partly not. A big part of it is exactly what is being collated, really… and how.

the thing is everybody has to find their own way. Otherwise we are all doing the same thing.

Yep, this I agree with.

diversity is what makes a system like martial arts grow.

This, a little less. For one thing, what system is "martial arts"? But, a little more seriously, it really, really depends on the art itself.

bunkai as you describe it would be the conversation though.

Not really… it can very much be a solo endeavour… although it can be, and is, done with a partner. What bunkai is is an exploration within the kata, which can take a number of forms.

even as you describe kata. Doesn't make it a conversation. It makes it a lecture.

Lectures are a format of communication to impart lessons… so, yeah. Mind you, I never said kata was a conversation… I was saying that a conversation isn't sparring… and pointing out that what you think you know kata is, isn't what it actually is. But hey, here's some kata that is more of a "conversation" for you…

(start from about 6:30)

which is not something i really do. Especially with martial arts. I am more of a take it apart and break it guy.

Hmm… you don't really learn from being told based on the knowledge of others? Really? Okay… for the record, of course, it should be pointed out that "take it apart" is a big part of kata training, and, well, pretty much all martial arts… thing is, once you do that, 99% of the time you'll find that the way it's been taught is the best method for it… which is the point of having it as kata in the first place.

Some very good points here. I really like what tony said above.

I also want to recognize drop bears point about lecturing. Its a very good one, IMO. Lecturing can be as destructive to a friendly discussion as an unwelcome debate.

I personally don't enjoy discussing things with people who are lecturing me in return.

It depends entirely on what the reasons for communication are. It's been commented that I lecture a bit here and there… and, honestly, a lecture isn't entirely the way it's intended… but, to be blunt, I am not here to ask questions.

On a thread when someone responds to your OP with, "Oh, dear lord..." I would guess that you are dealing with the verbal equivalent of the second scenario above. Really not worth pursuing. You won't "win", and the thread will go down the toilet.

Then let's clear up why such a phrase might be used… it's an expression of exasperation, used when the same topic that has been presented, countered, discussed, and moved on from… and is then brought up again. So, no, it's not necessarily the "second scenario" you presented…

yeah but what are you going to do?

Honestly? Listen.

this is kind of my point. That those who fire out those comments should not be so surprised at the response.

I'm surprised by nothing in your responses, for the record.

because conversation is sparring.

No. It isn't. For the ninth time, it really, really isn't.

MAMA Martial Arts Mommy Archives Sparring is a Conversation Not a Monologue

And you've used that before as well… and had explained to you (at length) that saying that sparring is a conversation is far from saying that conversation is sparring… not that you listened the first time… or the second, it seems… of course, I'd also point out that the blog post itself is not actually about the idea of sparring being a conversation either, despite it's purported message and title… it's about having awareness and sensitivity to your training partner… which is a different idea entirely.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

On a thread when someone responds to your OP with, "Oh, dear lord..." I would guess that you are dealing with the verbal equivalent of the second scenario above. Really not worth pursuing. You won't "win", and the thread will go down the toilet.

I can fully appreciate Chris Parker's exasperation. This 'conversation' with Drop Bear (and by extenstion Hanzou) started months ago and many, many threads ago. This is just the latest pre-packaged attempt at the same thing. Looking at DB's OP, Chris is correct, DB has absolutely no concept of what kata actually is. He has not been trained correctly by someone that knows what a kata actually is. Neither has Hanzou. And rather than attempt a 'conversation' with those that do know what a kata actually is, as a means of gaining knowledge, they dig in with multiple threads on their same lack of experience and education. That may sound like a flame, but it is not. That is just examining the situation as it exists.

DB and Hanzou, unfortunately, don't know what a kata truly is, how it is used for training and how that training is effective in real world altercations. I feel sad for them. But what is even sadder is that they don't want to know. Rather they choose to waste bandwidth again and again arguing from a position of ignorance. That isn't a conversation. People that likely have been training longer than they've been alive have patiently tried to explain what a kata is and why it is an effective means of training. They disregard it. Their loss.

 

[Steve]

@ Drop Bear: There is sparring between buddies or well intentioned acquaintances directed at both parties learning from the experience. Then again, there are those occasions when you enter into what you think will be such a productive session, and your opponent has such an attitude of disdain for your skill and experience that you can either continue and engage in a fight, or bow out and seek another partner to work with.

[ b]On a thread when someone responds to your OP with, "Oh, dear lord..." I would guess that you are dealing with the verbal equivalent of the second scenario above. Really not worth pursuing. You won't "win", and the thread will go down the toilet.[/b]

hey, geezer. You were right. Should we continue the metaphor by discussing the dangers of unchecked ego within sparring?



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[Chris Parker]

How so, Steve?

 

[Steve]

How do you think, Chris? You're a bright guy.


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[geezer]

I can fully appreciate Chris Parker's exasperation. ...Looking at DB's OP, Chris is correct, DB has absolutely no concept of what kata actually is. He has not been trained correctly by someone that knows what a kata actually is.

We all know that forms are practiced in many different ways in different systems and schools. DB is just speaking from a different experience than you and Chris. His remarks reflect that experience and perhaps his own temperament and learning style as well.

He has every right to voice his opinion on his experiences. On the other hand, he is out of his depth when generalizing and applying those opinions to what others do. If, as you say, he won't listen and learn, then any response is pointless. Equally, if you respond with condescension, you can hardly expect him to be open to your remarks. This is exactly how conversations become ego-driven arguments.

Arguing with very opinionated people is pointless. Some people will never back down, right or wrong. Take my wife, for example (bada-bum). So, I prefer to point out the differences in how forms or kata are used in different styles and even under different instructors within the same system. I will share what I do and learn from others about what they do. I'll let it go at that.

 

[Steve]

Great post, geezer.

It's been my experience that both sides have valid points. Where opinions and experiences are involved, it's very possible to have contradictory opinions that are both 'right'.


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[Kong Soo Do]

We all know that forms are practiced in many different ways in different systems and schools. DB is just speaking from a different experience than you and Chris. His remarks reflect that experience and perhaps his own temperament and learning style as well.

He has every right to voice his opinion on his experiences.

I agree, DB speaks from a different level of experience that several of us than have participated in these discussions. Does he have the right to voice his opinion? Sure. I would ask though, at what point is a person voicing his opinion and at what point is he simply trolling? I believe that is a valid question. DB and Hanzou severely lack experience in this area. That isn't condescending, and I've made that point clear in the past. It is observation. I severely lack experience in how points are scored in Thailand during a MT match, therefore I'm not going to start a dozen threads about it. If I were truly interested I would start ONE thread and allow those that are familiar with it educate me on the way points are scored. Then I'd say thank you for the education.

This isn't the case here.

On the other hand, he is out of his depth when generalizing and applying those opinions to what others do.

I quite agree.

If, as you say, he won't listen and learn, then any response is pointless.

On this I respectfully disagree in one regard. I agree it is pointless to argue with someone with a closed mind. However, this thread will be read by more people than just him and Hanzou. Of these people, some will be quite open minded and desire to look into the matter on a deeper level. This will enhance their own training considerably. It is for the benefit of these folks that I will enter the thread. If at some point DB and/or Hanzou truly wish to expand their knowledge base on kata (and a few other topics) then I will gladly assist them as I can. I have nothing against them, only the inane comments with no factual basis.

This is exactly how conversations become ego-driven arguments.

On the parts of some I quite agree. But not for all parties involved. For example, one may claim that kata training is not an efficient way to train for realworld self-defense. However, if someone that uses kata as a basis for realworld self-defense, and has been successful int that regard for decades, and clearly expresses this information, it is not ego-driven, it is factually based. If on the other hand the original person who made the statement, with no real world experience in this regard still makes the erroneous claim, it is now ego-drive and not factually based. Quite a difference.

Either DB wants to know more about kata training and why it is effective or he doesn't. If he is interested he need only reread the multitude of threads already devoted to the subject and them respectfully ask any question he may have to gain clarity. If he's not interested...then why is this yet another thread on the same thing with a different title? I think that is a valid question.

Do let's ask the question and see what the answer may be. This would be for DB as well as Hanzou. Are either of you truly interested in kata (as in what it is, how it is used and why it is so effective a training method)? Honest, straight-forward question. Can we hear what your response is please?

 

[ballen0351]

it's very possible to have contradictory opinions that are both 'right'.


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And sometimes people are just wrong

 

[Steve]

And sometimes people are just wrong

Zing. Good one.


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[Transk53]

You know, on level you could count verbal sparring as a conversation, but I would venture that it would be very good friends who would do that. Siblings would be the foremost though.


Other than that, between civilians, peace officers, or whoever, it would not be. Sparring is the same across the spectrum, I maybe a lunatic, but that is just obvious

No, verbal or otherwise, sparring has only one aim, only one being, to test yourself by both verbal, and physical contact. Hence, verbally that also fits. So, the reality is that both contradict each other. Thus a separation that cannot reflect.

 

[ballen0351]

Zing. Good one.


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I wasn't attempting to zing anyone. You tend to play this "everyone's opinion is valid" game but that's not true sometimes people opinions are just wrong.

 

[Steve]

I think everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some opinions are better grounded in fact than others. But there are plenty of times around here where two informed, fact based opinions are completely opposite Nd neither is wrong or all right.

 

[ballen0351]

I think everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some opinions are better grounded in fact than others. But there are plenty of times around here where two informed, fact based opinions are completely opposite Nd neither is wrong or all right.

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion. Not everyone's opinion is correct however. If you opinion is every other style is inferior to yours because you can't find a clip in youtube if that style in the "cage" then you spend all your time going from subsection to subsection of this forum asking why do we see _________style in the cage we see BJJ in the cage but not ___________. Well your opinion is wrong.

 

[Touch Of Death]

How do you think, Chris? You're a bright guy.


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This stuff, right here. Turns sparring into a real lesson. LOL