Conditioning And Stuff

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Napitenkah, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. Napitenkah

    Napitenkah Orange Belt

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    I've seen that episode of Human weapon and all the others, and the fight quest episodes.
    They are entertaining to watch, but some things come up that are irks about MMA fighters.
    That episode they do Taekwondo, The Kukkiwon style.
    Jason Chambers is a JKD concepts instructor and is or was an MMA fighter.
    He tried doing a tornado kick, during the fight at the end, and injured his knee badly.
    When I started getting back into TKD after being inactive, the first or second day there I pulled a muscle or tendon below the knee, while warming up, then funnily enough he had us doing tornado kicks, and I tried it and it made it worse so that I was out for two weeks.
    It was so bad, for atleast several days, walking was hard.
    After that I made a point of stretching properly before class, even if the school didn't so much. And I never hurt it again.
    But Jason chambers was active in martial arts already before the show, and still...
    It seems there is no guarantee that a MMA fighter will be conditioned properly.
    That show, they show them learning Taekkyon and Hwarang Do.
    There are some passing comments that those are the roots of Taekwondo.
    In "A KIlling Art"
    Alex Gillis gives a lot of information on the History of Taekwondo.
    For awhile in and around the fifties, people were still debating what to call it.
    Tang soo do, Taekkyon, or Taekwondo.
     
  2. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    Even the most conditioned athlete can suffer from sprains, tears and dislocations. That is just the risk. I would not jump to the conclusion that Jason is not well conditioned because he hurt himself in a sparring match or could not do a proper tornado kick right away.

    Neither one are roots to TKD. The indigenous Korean art in those three would be Taekkyon. HRD is not as ancient as they would have you believe.
     
  3. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    In Human Weapon, watch the kick in slow motion. Jason did the kick numerous times in the first place they went to. Hes a kickboxer. Hes a conditioned athlete. He did the kick at a funny angle (moving diagonally towards the other guy) and landed PERFECTLY, but, he was still moving. Basically his leg was planted and his body was moving. When his weight was redistributed onto his legs, it buckled. Then he got back up and came back for more.

    Ive seen blackbelts injure themselves doing simpler stuff than that.

    Anyway. Human Weapon was a documentary about competition, essentially. It was all built around the contest theyd have at the end. The history was mostly there to garner a wider audience.

    By the way. Jason and Bill did a fair bit of stretching before that match. Go watch the episode again.
     
  4. Jaeimseu

    Jaeimseu 3rd Black Belt

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    He was stupid to attempt that kick against a guy at that level. The "Professor" was basically toying with both of them and if Jason hadn't injured himself, I think it highly likely that he would also have been knocked out.

    In most any performance activity there are skills you are working on, skills you can pull off in practice but not "under pressure," and skills you can pull off "under pressure." It behooves you to know which category each of your skills fall under.

    Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2
     
  5. Napitenkah

    Napitenkah Orange Belt

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    There are different levels of conditioning.
    Jason Chambers was conditioned at that time to take hits that someone that wasn't a trained fighter would get hurt.
    But he wasn't conditioned like, let's say, like in the Karate episode, the guy that broke a bat that Bill was holding, with his inner arm.
    He didn't have great flexibility, and showed only basic kicking.
    I have seen the TKD one dozens of times. At Kukkiwon, when they first learned the kick.
    Bill got it down more or less, because he had little kicking experience, and didn't have to adjust.
    Jason kept spinning past the point of the kick, where they even told him, so it is correct that this is what lead to him twsiting his knee later, under stress of the fight.
    They just learned the kick.
    In my school, we practiced doing a combo, twist kick tornado kick.
    I suppose that is why they were picked for the show, that they had some experience, but wouldn't obviously be proficient at anything, and would have to work.
    I know people get hurt, especially in competition MMA, because they are constantly taxing their bodies, but those that have the deeper conditioning, often don't, other than how hurt they get from being punched and kicked and grappled.
    The "Taekwondo professor" really barely got started, and he already knocked out Bill, it just would have been interesting to see what he would have done the Jason, if he didn't get hurt right away.
    I have a question.
    How do people feel Chuck Norris was at kicking.
     
  6. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    Have the admins split this off into a different thread. The conversation is starting to drift waaaaaaaay far away from the actual topic of this thread.
     
  7. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Lemme save them the hassle :)
     
  8. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Yo. In the name of negotiation, at the end of this ill have aaaall my replies compounded into one long chain of unparagraphed text :)

    He was conditioned to engage in athletic combat. He was not underprepared. I havent thrown one since 2010, and i could stand up right now, no warmup or anything, and throw a head high tornado kick. Want it on video? Because im not kidding.

    Your point being? The conditioning which relates to forearm nerve deadening isnt really comparable to that whichll take your leg out if you fall on it. No amount of conditioning will fix that.

    Basic kicking is usually a good thing. His flexibility was clearly fine - Just because he wasnt using it much means precisely nothing. What were you expecting, volleys of headkicks?

    No, its not.
    I say again, go watch the video. He lands whilst moving diagonally. As his weight drops onto his leg, his leg bends. His knee slides forward whilst his leg remains stationary. Get it? Go actually watch it, tapping the play/pause button for a nice slow motion view.

    Id say hes done it before. Im pretty sure it is in kickboxing.

    Not proficient at anything? Riiight.

    'Deeper' conditioning? Might you kindly reword that into something less incoherent?

    Jason was doing a whole lot better than Bill, and the fight ended just as he was upping the aggression. It wouldnt have been such a clean affair. Bill lost because he tried to do the same thing more than once in a short space of time, and he kept his leg out after the kick. Plenty of time for absolutely any fathomable counter, be it a spin hook or a hook punch or a headbutt or a throw or whatever.

    He was fine. Though from his competitive days, SHOCKINGLY, he used mostly basic kicks.
    Have fun looking for videos of him actually fighting, and not doing kicks for television (as great as Walker Texas Ranger was :) )


    ===


    Yo. In the name of negotiation, at the end of this ill have aaaall my replies compounded into one long chain of unparagraphed text :)
    He was conditioned to engage in athletic combat. He was not underprepared. I havent thrown one since 2010, and i could stand up right now, no warmup or anything, and throw a head high tornado kick. Want it on video? Because im not kidding.
    Your point being? The conditioning which relates to forearm nerve deadening isnt really comparable to that whichll take your leg out if you fall on it. No amount of conditioning will fix that.
    Basic kicking is usually a good thing. His flexibility was clearly fine - Just because he wasnt using it much means precisely nothing. What were you expecting, volleys of headkicks?
    No, its not.
    I say again, go watch the video. He lands whilst moving diagonally. As his weight drops onto his leg, his leg bends. His knee slides forward whilst his leg remains stationary. Get it? Go actually watch it, tapping the play/pause button for a nice slow motion view.
    Id say hes done it before. Im pretty sure it is in kickboxing.
    Not proficient at anything? Riiight.
    'Deeper' conditioning? Might you kindly reword that into something less incoherent?
    Jason was doing a whole lot better than Bill, and the fight ended just as he was upping the aggression. It wouldnt have been such a clean affair. Bill lost because he tried to do the same thing more than once in a short space of time, and he kept his leg out after the kick. Plenty of time for absolutely any fathomable counter, be it a spin hook or a hook punch or a headbutt or a throw or whatever.
    He was fine. Though from his competitive days, SHOCKINGLY, he used mostly basic kicks.
    Have fun looking for videos of him actually fighting, and not doing kicks for television (as great as Walker Texas Ranger was :) )
     
  9. Napitenkah

    Napitenkah Orange Belt

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    I feel so special, people starting separate threads because they have to talk to me. Even if it was off topic, they still would have to be interested.
    Now say a bunch of mean things on how that isn't true.
    Yo.
    Don't speak the name!
    ,
    What is this a summit meeting?
    Don't be so pessimistic.
    Speak english
    What?!
    LOL just kidding.
    Bloody well yeah, I want it on video! I want to see your australian body doing a proper Tornado kick. And see if you are as tough as you like to sound on here.
    I practice the tornado kick for years, and I still think I don't do it well. I will show a video too.
    Jason couldn't really do high kicks well, so you would be a bit more conditioned than he was. And he didn't know a tornado kick. He had more flexibility than Bill, yes. But since JKD is a concepts system, everyone chooses what they will work on. When he sparred the Hwarang Do guy, he couldn't get a kick more than waist level, before he got kicked in the head.
    There you go. The type of conditioning and how it is done, is a common misunderstanding, even with people that do martial arts. For someone to break a bat with their inner forearm, or to break 13 marble slabs like in that episode of Taekwondo, it is not just a matter of nerve deadening. Nerve deadening is a surface condition, that just prevents you from feeling the impact. It doesn't do anything for the trauma itself. You can take a shot of cortisone and get the same effect. The type of conditioning they do to be able to break things that would normally cause you severe injury and not injure themselves, is hard bone conditioning. It is wolff's law. It is where you put gradual increased loads on your bones, through some type of conditioning routine, and then they will reconstruct, become stronger to handle those loads.
    Muay Thai fighters in Thailand know about that. Deaden the nerves in your legs, and go there and get into a muay thai fight with one of the locale fighters. Connect legs and your shin bone will crack like a potato chip, and the locale fighter will be fine.
    Karate has hard bone conditioning, Taekwondo, atleast in Korea, appears to have some kind of hard bone conditioning. Kung Fu, like in the Shaolin groups, have extensive conditioning.
    It is not all physical though, it is partly utilizing chi.
    They were asked to break one marble slab. Jason wouldn't and stopped Bill before he hurt himself.
    There is also the conditioning to take the impact of jumps. A proficient Taekwondo Kicker, that has hard bone conditioning, can do alll kinds of crazy spinning kicks, one after the other, and not land wrong on their knee or ankle. You are right, once someone hurts themselves because they were not properly conditioned, or just because they already got hurt in an MMA fight, conditioning won't fix that. They then have to heal, and then start real conditioning.
    If you want to see an example of a Taekwondo practioner that is proficent in kicks and conditioning, check out Kwonkicker on youtube.
    He can also educate on the difference between nerve deadening and hard bone conditioning.


    Well, yea, it is taekwondo. If he already knew all that, like you seem to think, then why not do it. He knows BJJ, and he uses it in episodes even when it is not part of the martial art they are trying.
    Because he didn't know the kick hardly, and his legs had yet to condition for the stress of twisting impact.
    I know it is not, not in the usual kickboxing, and unless he was lying and acting, he said he had not done it before.
    You really can't ask me to "kindly" word things, when you cannot. And if I have to break everything down to its lowest terms and details for you to digest it, you are going to have to make it a little more fun and less condescending. If you knew about conditioning, then you would be able to pick up on the short hand.
    Jason had already got kicked in the head, in the first round. And I would bet that his lights would have gone out too, if he didn't try that kick he didn't know how to do well. The kick saved him from kissing Taekwondo floor Mat.
    I totally agree. Thank you, finally someone that doesn't think he is this amazing martial artist.
    He has high Dans in Tang soo do and taekwondo and you never see much Taekwondo.
    I only found one early Karate style fight. Where they don't kick above the chest.
     
  10. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Jason's injury had nothing to do with his bone conditioning or his fitness conditioning, both of which were of a sufficient standard to be irrelevant in that match.

    His injury was due to poor form in the kick. He travelled diagonally, which the kick shouldn't do, and landed flatfooted before he completed both the diagonal and rotational motions, leading to lateral and rotational shearing strain on his knee joint. If he had landed on the ball of the foot, he would have rotated on it and been fine. That's the difference between an agile Taekwondo kicker used to rotation and a more basic kicker. I think he was familiar with the kick before, but had not pushed it under pressure, and lost balance and focus on the day.

    By the way, Kwonkicker doesn't teach anything that most people here don't already know. Youtube isn't a good source of reliable information. Just saying.

    Also, above average bone conditioning is not necessary to be successful in competition Taekwondo. A bit of conditioning of the hands and feet can prevent injury, but is not required outside of what is gained through normal practice.

    Gnarlie
     
  11. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Actually, another user suggested the admins do it. I saved them the hassle.

    Okey dokey.

    I sound tough? If thats the impression youre getting, you may want to look for the parts where i make any claims about myself. Ill record it tonight.

    Cool. Im not a black belt, either. I have no claim of being the best.

    And youre basing this on what? His lack of 'deeper conditioning'?

    And what makes you think he wanted to? Not doing something doesnt make you incapable of doing it.

    Mate, anyone can break a baseball bat if they hit it hard enough. Conditioning just makes you feel it less. Dosing up on painkillers works as well.

    Um... That IS an element of nerve deadening, mate.

    How nice.

    Im going to be very nice, and pretend you didnt bring chi into this.

    Yeah. Because they had a fight coming up. If you had a professional fight coming up as a part of your job you wouldnt waste time demonstrating your technical prowess on inanimate objects either. Its stupid.

    And in my video, ill do, lets say, eight consecutive tornado kicks. There we go. I guess thisll make me a super chi bone conditioned crazy warrior person of universal energy and deepness.

    Lemme stop you right there.
    Okay, lets break this down.

    He. Was. Not. Injured. Due. To. Lack. Of. Conditioning.

    Aha - And incidentally, both of those things end up happening to some extent most of the time. Now explain why my forearms are already hard without one solitary day of conditioning. Im waiting.

    When did i say he knows taekwondo?

    Either way, thats his decision. Why didnt Bill wrestle in the Pancration episode?

    So i guess he just learnt the control and balance necessary to throw the kick at all overnight. Gotcha.

    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

    Go back and read. I was asking kindly, not asking you to be kind. Also, ive been rather polite. If i werent being polite id just tell you how ridiculous alot of this sounds and leave it at that. If i werent being polite id have no reason to bother explaining. Incidentally, what you just said here reads as incredibly condescending after my politely asking you to reword your statement.

    Is English your first language? If it isnt, that explains it.

    Of course - Because obviously hes just some incapable idiot, cursed by inferior training methods.

    Pleasure.
     
  12. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    There you go - One Australian body throwing a tornado kick!

    Here, have a copy of the description :)

    ---
    Baring in mind, ive not thrown a single one of these since 2010. I also took special care to not warm up in advance.
    If you actually want the one of eight consecutive kicks, youll have to wait til morning when i can do it outside.

    Behold my supposed conditioning which allows me to throw my first high kick in god knows how long.
    I know for sure its my first kick above the height of my own hips for 2013.

    Cheers!
    ---

    I shall now indiscriminately express my distate for artsy fancy stuff.
    A younger me liked them, the older me is only doing this one for fun.

    -
    Edit: Its kinda funny. The only time i upload a video onto the internet its me doing something i dont like for a bit of fun. Makes peeerfect sense. Its like the antithesis of why youd make such a video. Ill probably only leave this up for a week or two. It almost feels 'wrong' : )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Ooh I bet your knee be a'hurtin now. Not. That's really not what I imaged you looking like at all :)



    Gnarlie
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  14. Napitenkah

    Napitenkah Orange Belt

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    I both agree with you and contend that if he had proper bone and impact conditioning it may have worked out better.
     
  15. Napitenkah

    Napitenkah Orange Belt

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    Well, when you get out and do those 8 consecutive kicks, do a tornado kick and not a narabam kick. And do it without holding a door for balance. And Gnarlie I am a bit sad that you didn't notice the difference, or are you too another person who hasn't practiced taekwondo in years.
    The funny thing is, if you knew about bone conditioning, you would know that you personally being able to do a kick 3 years away from practice doesn't mean anything other than where you are physically and mentally. I only asked for the video just to see you do it.
    And you look exactly like I imagined.
    Everyone's bone structure and ability cannot be compared to another.
    Once you learn a kick, you can always do it again. And if your bone structure is already naturally conditioned, or still retains the last level of conditioning you had before quitting, then you can do it without getting hurt. But that only means you, not everyone.
    The same thing for flexibility. Maybe you have natural flexibility, like a girl.
    My flexibility was bad. But I have kept at it, and if I don't stretch for awhile, I retain the level I last had, but if I don't do it for years, it goes back to the usual flexibility. But that is just me.
    If you learn how to run and run for awhile, you never forget. You can always do it again, and when you first try something after not doing it for awhile it depends on your body what will happen.
    You barely left the ground on the kick, but with a narabam kick, that is the usual.
    With a tornado kick, if you are going to kick with the right leg, you lift the left leg as high as possible, which for one gets better height and better power.
    It may take me a few days to video me doing it, but I can change how fast and slow I twist and hang. And I will actually kick something consecutively.
    You still did that narabam kick better than jason did his improper tornado.
     
  16. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Yeah. Obviously Taekwondo is full of deep chi conditioning you just cant get otherwise. His silly kickboxy and mma and bjjay aint got nothin on it.
    All hail the one true path!

    'Twas a tornado kick. Im afraid our definitions may vary, however.

    I clearly wasting holding anything, and even if i was, how would that help me turn 360 degrees? Youre looking for problems, mate.

    Actually, i offered to make a video for you. You accepted my gracious offer :) Also, thats a green belt doing a tornado kick for you after three years. Im cool with whatever you think of that :)

    Cool, dude! Its funny though, because my parents are European. I really dont look very Australian.

    Lemme say it again: I have never done physical conditioning before. In my life.

    I have never been able to do any way shape or form of the splits. I am not flexible.

    I stopped stretching five years ago, having one done it for one year. I gained significantly from that decsion.

    I learned tornado kicks shortly before quitting. It was not a refined skill. You can ditch that line of idealogy.

    Aww.

    Aww.
    ...wait, arent i meant to be naturally flexible? On mild experimentation, i cant lift my knee that high and jump at the same time. The significance!

    If you want, i guess. But you should know that flash just looks silly to me. How slow you twist and hang tells me more about how much time you waste in the air as compared to your ability to hit something.

    EDIT: Youre the one who brought up Kwonkicker. By his videos standards, i threw a tornado kick. Go figure! And it was a head height kick. You may need to accept this, good sir.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
  17. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Yo, mate.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rIrWFaDWjw8#t=9s

    0:07-0:10.
    Im terribly sorry, but my knee did not need to be higher. I did not need to be higher. For all intents and purposes, i just threw a technically sufficient tornado kick.
    :drink2tha


    Why do i get the feeling this is going to be another nocturnal thing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rIrWFaDWjw8#t=9s
    3:15-3:17.
    Haul on the bowline...

    Pretty much all of them.
    Homeward we are going!

    Yeah, this is too easy. I get the feeling youre arguing for the sake of argument.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  18. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    To be fair to Cyriacus, he wasn't holding the door at any point during the kick, therefore your argument is obtuse.

    I saw the kick for what it was: a decent turn kick. I just don't acknowledge two different techniques by those names because the principle behind them both is exactly the same. No Kukkiwon certified Korean instructor I have ever worked with has used the term 'tornado' referring to a kick. Nor have they referred to 'narabam', although I have seen both terms. I strongly suspect that they only mean different things in your back yard. Maybe you should go out of the gate once in a while. Korean Kukkiwon instructors tend to refer to a 'turn' kick, which can be performed on the ground, or in the air at the point of contact. Both techniques are variants of the same turn kick with slightly different timing and focus. If you can do one, it's not a massive stretch to reach the other, and to argue between the two is, from my perspective, rather petty and parochial. Especially when the point here relates to the injury Jason sustained when he LANDED due to a flat foot during an incomplete kick. Had he been in the air, the injury would not have happened. Frankly I find your points about bone conditioning being necessary or even helping (assuming average bone structure) with these kicks faintly ridiculous.

    And I hold a Kukkiwon 3rd Dan and have experience of training and teaching Taekwondo at multiple institutions in multiple countries. I practice Taekwondo for around 12 Hours each week, supplemented by fitness and strength training outside of those hours. I have close links with the Kukkiwon and leaders at two of the most respected Korean University Taekwondo Faculties (colleagues of 'the Professor', actually), which allows me to continue research I have been doing for more than a decade into the Poomsae, Training Techniques, Kinesiology and Philosophy of Taekwondo, with a view to publishing on those topics. You asked, now you know.

    By the way, none of the diverse sources of information that form my research concur with your views on bone conditioning being required for successful kicking. For striking surfaces, yes, but for general body structure, certainly not.

    This is basic technique. Even more advanced variants, such as turn kick landing on the kicking foot, or 540 degree reverse hook, do not require bone conditioning. They require practice, sure, but not bone conditioning except in the striking surfaces if they are to be used for destruction.

    It was a decent kick, probably better than a lot of people are capable of from cold after a period of not training it.

    The kick went to face height with a reasonable percentage hip power (I estimate a 45 degree turn in) into it. If you want higher, who are you kicking??

    I'm not sure why we are uploading video, it's not adding anything to the discussion. I won't be uploading video, because I am happy with my ability and am capable of any variant of this kick and its more advanced relations. I have nothing to prove here.

    Agreed. Cyriacus' form and balance was fine. It was Jason's poor balance, form, and flat-footedness that led to his injury.
     
  19. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Originally, i was mostly just kidding around. But since he accepted the offer i felt like i should at least follow through :)
    In any case, it did contribute, since it sort of mitigates the idea of conditioning being necessary to throw a kick properly.
     
  20. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    I understand the point of your original video, of course.

    What I mean is, now that that point has been demonstrated, why would we need to upload more vids? What point would they be supporting? Other than entering into a urination contest?

    This part of my post was more pre-emptive than anything else - before anyone asks.123
     

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