Compassion

[Master of Blades]

I was in the chatroom with Arnisador (Who I am now personal Psychiatrist too ) when we came up with the idea of compassion and the Martial Arts and whether they go together? So seeing this as a good opportunity for discussion and why just leave it to me and Arni when it can be me and the whole of Martial Talk!

In a nutshell it all comes down to the Art.....as Arnisador so rightly put a lot of FMA arts have the "Simply Get the Job Done" mindset. In some other arts this is not the case.

So can you still be a proper Martial Artists who wants to protect him/herself at all costs and still show compassion?


BTW on a less interesting topic this is my 100th thread!

 

[chufeng]

So can you still be a proper Martial Artists who wants to protect him/herself at all costs and still show compassion?

Yes

:asian:
chufeng

 

[DAC..florida]

Compassion and martial arts in the same sentence doesnt seem to fit but after I have had a little time to digest the whole idea Im actually starting to come around.:asian:

:goop:

 

[Cliarlaoch]

How can the two not go together? Without compassion, you are not human. And without compassion, you will not have the ability to understand when to stop the fight and walk away.

:asian:

 

[Kalicombat]

Compassion for a sick friend, a homeless child, etc.. is one thing. Compassion for some scum that tries to cause you harm is quite another. There is no such thing as compassion for an attacker. If he or she is stupid enough to choose me as a target, whatever happens to them as a result is their fault. No one should ever show compassion when they are the intended victim.

Also, you dont fight when you are attacked, you eliminate the threat. You go until the assailant either runs away or stops moving.

OFFER NO MERCY AND EXPECT NO MERCY.
Gary Catherman

 

[Despairbear]

Compassion can be many things to different people. Compassion can be doing as little harm as nessisary to bring the given situation to an end. Compassion is when you restrain the drunk with a joint lock rather than breaking his knee joint. Compassion can be letting that finacialy strapped student wash windows and mop floors in the dojo in lew of normal fees. I think compassion can also be uding your traing to defend some one who is in trouble and can not defend themselves. Mabey it is just me but I think that compassion is not just a possible a part of MA training but a necessary part of all MA training.



Despair Bear

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
Compassion for a sick friend, a homeless child, etc.. is one thing. Compassion for some scum that tries to cause you harm is quite another. There is no such thing as compassion for an attacker. If he or she is stupid enough to choose me as a target, whatever happens to them as a result is their fault. No one should ever show compassion when they are the intended victim.

Also, you dont fight when you are attacked, you eliminate the threat. You go until the assailant either runs away or stops moving.

OFFER NO MERCY AND EXPECT NO MERCY.
Gary Catherman

Gary,

I see your point, yet I disagree.

I as in one fight were I was giving it all like normal. As it turned out, I ended up dropping him on his head, (* Falling down off balance *). I turned around to continue the fight and to do what was necessary to stop him. He was not moving, nor breathing. His neck was tucked bent and chin tucked up under his shoulder, he was lying on his stomache. I took a pen out of my pocket, and I used it to open his mouth and pull his tongue back. He gasp for breath, I left him alone and then waited for the police.

To me during the confilct I did what was necessary to survive and win. Yet, I could not just sit there and do nothing afterwards either.

Like I said my opinion and how I feel. You have your feelings as well.

Train Well :asian:

 

[Kalicombat]

Rich,
Thanks for the reply. We all form our personal opinions from our experiences. I can see your point, based on your experience. Mine have been different. A good friend of mine was hit in the face with a golf club, he too layed motionless, and not breathing. His attacker, took his check book and walet, with $15 in cash, and before fleeing, he kicked my friend, just to make sure he was out. He survived, but is disabled, and his life will never be the same. I have other such stories that display exactly how ruthless and dispicable some members of society CHOOSE to be. I dont have an over abundance of compassion anyway, but when things like this happen to those that I am close too, I abandon compassion completely.
On a side note, I dont FIGHT people. I used to, every weekend at any number of bars that I used to frequent Now, ego is no longer involved in my day to day life. If I am attacked, there is no mercy, no compassion, and no stopping me until I am free from danger. That goes for my family and friends as well. I used to fight out of anger when some idiot would find it necessary to bring it to my attention that I was over weight, which I was at 500 pounds. I smacked alot of people just to shut them up and to "pay them back" if you will, for insults. I have matured and quit drinking, so I dont frequent the same places, and having lost 250 pounds, I dont have the chip on my shoulder about my weight that I used to. Only I do have to say that when I see someone making fun of a person, for any reason be it weight, disability, weakness, etc... it takes every once of my being to refrain from pummeling the idiot.
We are products of our experiences. We can choose to be something different, and not alow our experiences to cloud our judgement, but at the moment of truth, I believe we all revert back to what we know and do best. A leopard can not change his spots.

Just my $0.02,
Gary Catherman

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
Compassion for a sick friend, a homeless child, etc.. is one thing. Compassion for some scum that tries to cause you harm is quite another. There is no such thing as compassion for an attacker. If he or she is stupid enough to choose me as a target, whatever happens to them as a result is their fault. No one should ever show compassion when they are the intended victim.

Also, you dont fight when you are attacked, you eliminate the threat. You go until the assailant either runs away or stops moving.

OFFER NO MERCY AND EXPECT NO MERCY.
Gary Catherman

There are many forms and levels of compassion. I do tend to agree with the above comment to a point. I would just like to point out that it's compassion, or morality, that seperates us from the predators of the world.

It's compassion that would stop me from doing a finger thrust to someones eye that just throws a punch at me. It's compassion that would stop me from beating someone to death that may no longer be a threat.

During the heat of battle for your life, there may be no room for compassion. There is always room for it afterwards. Otherwise, we are no better than them.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
......So can you still be a proper Martial Artists who wants to protect him/herself at all costs and still show compassion?....

Those are NOT mutually exclusive objectives, not by any stretch of imagination.

When a soldier kills an enemy troop, that enemy may simply be an honorable man who happen to be fighting on the other side. That is why in war [against nation] there is really no winner and loser. Just who loses the most. (Some wars are not really wars. For example, the current Gulf War is not a war against Iraq, but a war against Saddam and his henchmen.)

When a police kills a criminal, there is nothing but honor. Because he has rid the society of a predator. This has been found to be true. Don't believe all those BS about how COPS feel remorse after a shooting. According to Jeff Cooper, his research found that the opposite is true.

Along the same line, self defence against a criminal attack, is righteous, honorable and compassionate.

Allow me to elaborate by quoting Benjamin Martin, played by Mel Gibson, in the movie, The Patriot, " I am a parent. What is going to happen to my children, if something happens to me [in a war against the Crown]?" It is self-explainatory, eventhough it might be harder to relate to, for those who have no responsibility.

 

[Jill666]

Compassion has it's place- if I were to use deadly force to protect myself I would, of necessity, show no mercy. I don't know if I would regret my actions or simply the need to act. But I would feel compassion for the family left behind, and an expression of regret to the family (in a courtroom for example) would certainly be in order.

A predator is not a warrior. A predator is someone without mercy, regard, respect, compassion. This isn't what we are training for. A warrior acts out of necessity, and accepts responsibility.

 

[arnisador]

I found when I studied Karate-do that philosophical issues were stressed. The FMA seem much more focused on just winning and being done with it. (Modern Arnis is actually much more focused on philosophy/compassion than most FMA, in my opinion, but even there it isn't as fully and richly developed anda s well integrated as in the Japanese arts).

I think compassion is important to the martial artist--indeed to anyone, but even more so to the martial artist. But it isn't a part of every martial art, in my experience.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Jill666
...... But I would feel compassion for the family left behind, and an expression of regret to the family (in a courtroom for example) would certainly be in order.
....

me too...IN THE COURTROOM!!

 

[chufeng]

In many ways, those who are capable of REALLY hurting another have the greatest responsibility to show compassion...by showing compassion, you may be transforming the heart of the would-be attacker...perhaps he will learn that there are those who can show mercy when total destruction is fully justified under the law...

The example of one who posted earlier "...he was not breathing and I used a pen to pry his mouth open so he could breathe..." is an excellent example...and he did so at great legal risk...let's face it, dead men can't sue...but, something inside Rich told him what was right and true...

To do the least damage, or to avoid it altogether, is the best recourse...withholding the BIG attack IS a form of compassion...those who let emotion and adrenalin rule the events have a lot more to learn in their martial training.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by arnisador
I found when I studied Karate-do that philosophical issues were stressed. The FMA seem much more focused on just winning and being done with it. (Modern Arnis is actually much more focused on philosophy/compassion than most FMA, in my opinion, but even there it isn't as fully and richly developed anda s well integrated as in the Japanese arts).

I think compassion is important to the martial artist--indeed to anyone, but even more so to the martial artist. But it isn't a part of every martial art, in my experience.

As far as FMA goes, one aspect of it can be compassionate, in a way: In a knife fight (or any fight come to think about it), a common practice, is to "defang the snake." Destroy or disarm the weapon. If it's a knife, disarm or cut the tendons or thumb for a disarm. It seems brutal, but the idea is - once you have defanged the snake, it's no longer a threat (or at least not so much), and it's up to you to finish him off, or be merciful. So instead of going directly for the jugular (corotid might be better actually), go for the knife hand. You can let them live with that one.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm

When a police kills a criminal, there is nothing but honor. Because he has rid the society of a predator. This has been found to be true. Don't believe all those BS about how COPS feel remorse after a shooting. According to Jeff Cooper, his research found that the opposite is true.

I realize it says JN is cannot reply right now,yet I would like to add at least two data points that differ from this statment.

I have a real good Friend, and the Brother in law of another Good friend are Police Officers. And yes they were happy they were alive when the gun fight was over, they both had lots of stress and issues to deal with. My Friend was real upset the guy had to die, instead of being taken in.

I just do not think everyone believes this way.

My Opinion from my life experiences listening. :asian:

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Master of Blades


BTW on a less interesting topic this is my 100th thread!

Braggart!!! :goop:

:uhyeah: :wink1:

 

[Wmarden]

I feel a warrior has a duty to show compassion at all possible times. for example you use the appropriate force necessary to control the situation or to remove the harm. I used to work with children in a mental hospital and had to put a few holds on children. Some as young as 5 or 6. Though usually the problem children were a little older. Compassion warranted the use of force. Compassion is not just turning the other cheek or not using a force against another. Sometimes using that force is the most kind act you can do. Even if it is the ultimate force in the most extreme of cases.

 

[yilisifu]

Well said.

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Well said.

Ditto to everyone who posted their opinion and feelings on this matter :asian: I've only just got back from my friends and am about to go back to bed to catch up on all the sleep I missed so I will read this thread properallly when I'm fully awake. Thanks for answering and keep 'em coming, THIS is an interesting thread :asian:



Awwwwwww shucks! I missed JN getting suspended! :wah:


:shrug: