comparing kenpo...

[Flying Crane]

This is a thread aimed at discussion between those who have experience in more than one kenpo lineage. I am curious to know about how you feel about the different branches you have trained in. Is there one that you like better? Why? is it the the curriculum, or the general approach to training, or something else? If you switched from one to another, why?

This is not intended to become a fight over which is "better". I think that is a personal decision that the individual needs to make for him/herself. But I am curious to hear about how you would compare and contrast them, based on your experiences. I only have experience with Tracys, and so am unable to make the comparison.

This comparison could be between EPAK, Tracys, Villari, Castro, Kara-Ho, Kosho, etc.

Even within EPAK, if you have trained under different seniors, how to you feel about that? This could include comparing Planas lineage with Labounty lineage with Palanzo lineage, with Speakman lineage, with Sullivan lineage, etc.

I look forward to some interesting discussions here. Thanks in advance.

 

[Brian Jones]

Good thread, if we can keep it from being a flame war. I am lucky in that my original Kenpo instructor (a Black Belt under Jay T. Will) has always stressed that he teaches Kenpo. Not Tracy's or EPAK or whatever. In his mind, its all good as long as its safe and logical. He never wanted us to get so locked into one paradigm, that we coudn't add more tools to our tool box.
I have tried to keep that philosophy. because I have moved around some I cannot train with him as frequently as I would like. I began training with a Paul Mills AKKI instructor, one becuase they were close. But I liked the emphasis on speed and relaxed power. They have helped me move more effeciently and with more speed and power. Now that doesn't mean that other lineages don't move with power or speed. it was just for me the AKKI has really helped me with that. But again I still go to seminars with other Kenpo notable's becausee in my mind its all (potentially) good if its kenpo.

Brian Jones

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I got to second dan through a Tracy lineage school (AKKA in New Mexico). Moved up to Portland, Oregon where the Tracy guys were far away from me both physically and mentally. Hooked up with an EPAK school run by Dave Hebler. I still train in that, and am also learning Kosho Kenpo (Juchnik lineage). My thoughts.

The differences between Tracy and Parker are mostly academic. This one's called Delayed Sword and has a kick, this one's called Inward Defense and doesn't, but you get to change the ending to a backfist if you want. Parker's Brown Belt stuff seems a little ornate and overly long, but then I always found the option structure of the Tracy kind of goofy. They both have strengths and weaknesses, and the differences are of little importance.

I have found that my Kenpo improved greatly for having studied from both branches of the tree.

As far as Kosho goes, I really enjoy it. It's like Aikido met Kenpo at a bar after a concert and they had a kid. It's also a bit like Jeet Kun Do in that I think it's better as a second art -- coming to it as a noob I think lots of the concepts would have come to me much slower.

Anyways, that's my one and a half canadian cents.

 

[Flying Crane]

then I always found the option structure of the Tracy kind of goofy.

Are you referring to all the variations to the techs? If so, I definitely find that to be overdone, in many cases...

 

[bushidomartialarts]

yep. the a,b,c,d thing seems kind of silly. what (little) i know of teaching mehods says it should be a and only a until you've mastered a. and then you should be free to mix it up as you like. the variations in tracy kenpo introduce an idea early enough to confuse newbs, but represent the idea poorly enough that it confuses experienced students too.

 

[Flying Crane]

yep. the a,b,c,d thing seems kind of silly. what (little) i know of teaching mehods says it should be a and only a until you've mastered a. and then you should be free to mix it up as you like. the variations in tracy kenpo introduce an idea early enough to confuse newbs, but represent the idea poorly enough that it confuses experienced students too.

Yeah, I can agree with that. I think in some cases the variations make sense, if some aspect of the attack is fundamentally changed in a way that represents a real possibility, making the original technique unworkable. That would sort of require re-examining the response and formulating a new variation.

But if the initial attack remains the same, I don't need variations B thru E to tell me that I can finish the bad guy off with a palm strike to the nose, half fist to the throat, poke to the eyes, or knifehand to the side of the neck, when variation A tells me to finish him with a punch to the nose. The rest of that is something I can figure out for myself...

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I've had the pleasure of training with four different "lines" of EPAK (Palanzo, Speakman, Tatum, Planas), AKKI Kenpo (Mills) and now a Kenpo Ju Jitsu hybrid (Parker, Jay, Gracie). I have found much to benefit from in all of them. It's when one claims something "new" or "different" that the other one doesn't have that I take exception. 9 out of 10 times I can show and explain where the "new" thing already exists somewhere else in the other "lines". Different flavors to the same meal in my opinion although I favor the hybrid as the direction I wish to go in for now.

 

[Seabrook]

Like James, I too have trained in a few lineages over the years (I won't bring up that past since I don't want to shoot anyone down) and can say that I have by far enjoyed the Larry Tatum lineage of which I am now a part of. Larry Tatum is a fabulous teacher, with unbelievable skill, and is able to convey his knowledge in a way that is easy to understand. I recently had the pleasure of teaching at one of Larry Tatum's camps, and like always, the comraderie was second to none.

My students that come with me to camps always tell me how nice Larry is and how approachable he is. Also, the guys who teach at his camps (ie. Clyde O'Briant, Mike Lambert, Lee Epperson, ect... are all great guys and friends of mine whose Kenpo skills are VERY IMPRESSIVE).

 

[MJS]

This is a thread aimed at discussion between those who have experience in more than one kenpo lineage. I am curious to know about how you feel about the different branches you have trained in. Is there one that you like better? Why? is it the the curriculum, or the general approach to training, or something else? If you switched from one to another, why?

This is not intended to become a fight over which is "better". I think that is a personal decision that the individual needs to make for him/herself. But I am curious to hear about how you would compare and contrast them, based on your experiences. I only have experience with Tracys, and so am unable to make the comparison.

This comparison could be between EPAK, Tracys, Villari, Castro, Kara-Ho, Kosho, etc.

Even within EPAK, if you have trained under different seniors, how to you feel about that? This could include comparing Planas lineage with Labounty lineage with Palanzo lineage, with Speakman lineage, with Sullivan lineage, etc.

I look forward to some interesting discussions here. Thanks in advance.

I originally began my journey in the Villari system, then moving to EPAK and now Tracy. I always try to give credit where credit is due, so that being said, it was my starting in the SKK system that got me started. Perhaps I just wasn't seeing all there was to offer, but I felt that there were a number of things that seemed to be left out or not give too high a priority in that system. Once I switched to EPAK, my eyes were opened to many new, exciting things. I was fortunate to have a number of people show me things that I had no idea existed in that system. Finally, moving to my current school, there are so many similarities between Tracy and Parker. The technique list is not as extensive as some schools that teach the Tracy method, but IMO, thats fine, as I feel that its not the number of techs., but how well you can perform and apply them.

I still run through the Parker material, but at this point, I'm happy with the material I'm learning now. The material works for me, my inst. makes sure that I can make it work, and its really amazing how similar things are. At this point and time, I'm getting the best training for me where I am now.

Its all Kenpo, just a different branch of the tree.