Checking the Storm...

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo3631



Strike that, redirect...ummm, the upward cross block...

Well sir, I knew I would get a bite but, I didn't think it would be you.

As I was taught, there is no "X cross etc. block" in American Kenpo. In actuality, the block is a singular "upward block" (or downward) defense with an "off hand catcher."

The same applies for the lateral "universal block and vise" It is and inward block or a downward block with the off hand acting as a control medium "catcher" for Control Manipulations.

Both hands are NOT deployed simultaneous but can give the impression it is similar to the traditional "X" block because at one point the forearms do cross. The American kenpo methodology I use is similar to Chin na, but as usual Parker modified and updated it for modern self defense use. A clue to it's proper use is in Long 1.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth



Thank you Dr. Chapel for many insight on this thread. I've enjoyed reading this more than one time over. My question is this. In Obstructing the Storm, doesn't this technique use the cross block up position? I realize it won't stay there for more than a second. You redirect and step up with the foot immediately but the cross block up position is on my kenpo curriculum basics list. I'm just curious about your thought on this.
Thank you
Jason Farnsworth

Well Sir, I've seen it in various interpretations of the lesson plan, but actually the answer
is still "no" for me as I was taught. Technically if it is done correctly, you should actually
be capable of defending your self with only one hand. In "Obstructing the Storm," You're
not supposed to block the club (as I understand it) so why would you need two hands to
commit to a/the block? Look at the title of the technique. "Obstructing," not "blocking" the Storm.

I know why it's presented this way in the Technique Manuals. It's a simplistic "idea" that
almost anyone can pick up on quickly, but a more sophisticated instructor would give you
more information. Remember the information contained in the Motion-Kenpo Lesson Plan by
design, had to be very simplistic to be workable for the vehicles lowest common
denominators, and is written that way. Everything is conceptual and/or simplistic ideas to
be expanded upon by the teacher.

The true knowledge repository is in the Head Instructor of a group. The sophistication of
the art is not within the writing, it is in the teachers knowledge to interpret the lesson
plan at different levels according to the student's abilities and understandings.

Unfortunately, most teachers now are products of the lesson plan itself, which was not
designed to make teachers, but reasonably competent (read lowest common denominator)
practitioners. It's a self-defense lesson plan administered by a "teacher," not an
"Instructors Course." In education they always separate courses to give you some
understanding of a subject from those that are supposed to give you information to "teach"
the subject. Everyone has taken Kenpo 101 , now they think they can "teach" Kenpo.

Oops! No rant intended. There are just so many great students out there that deserve more
and better information.

Anyway the attack comes from 12 and you step toward the attacker into a left neutral bow
so the attack is shaded to your right. The defensive hand is the right hand executing an
upward block from the rear. Executed correctly your hand should be angling toward 10:30
and upward at a 45 degree angle. With proper timing this will deflect the "committed
attack" off to your right causing your attacker to fall forward from his own weight and
momentum. That is the block that defends. students should practice this at first to become
competent in the defense first. when you can defend your self this way without using your
left at all, then you are ready for part two. This is important because this defense,
presented here for the first time, repeats itself in many ways over again in the hard
curriculum. Besides, in my opinion, you should be capable of deflecting the attack alone and
moving away with no further response.

It takes timing, however once you feel you have been successful in the block "deflecting" his
attack, you now execute a left (forward hand) upward block. This block angles upward at 45
degrees and outward toward 1:30.

Important: the second upward block doesn't block, it only slows the hand down for a split
second to allow the first blocking hand the opportunity to "seize" the wrist. That is why the
second hand doesn't block but actually "catches" or momentarily controls the descent of the
weapon.

From here the description becomes more difficult in this medium but I'll try. So now we
have "seized" his right wrist, and our left controlling block is in contact with his forearm.
His own downward pressure and momentum will allow you to "roll" your arm
"counterclockwise" (back toward you) while still maintaining contact with the forearm, as
you "roll" over the top of his arm to apply pressure to his arm and to keep him accelerating
to downward.

I have my students practice this from that point singularly after learning the one hand
deflection.

Both students get in position.

Defender: Left neutral bow, right upward block in place, and left upward in place.
Attacker: right foot forward, place his arm as if he had just been "blocked." Then the
attacker pushes down against the defenders arms with as much weight as he can.
Defender: Now you can practice the "seize" of the wrist and the rolling of the forearm into
an arm bar to a takedown alone. Then you just put the two together.

There are some other things we do as well but this is the beginning. Let me know if this helps, and describe your experiences, good or bad and we'll see what we can do.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

The next time I get into class I will try to execute the technique this way.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth



Dr. Chapel could I ask another question to you. It just came into my mind. After reading your post on the cross block up, I was reminded of Defensive Cross. If I'm not mistaken (maybe I am, b/c it's been a long day for me) doesn't this "supposedly" use the cross block down to block the leg (for a split second) as the left hand rides back to the right ankle to drag the person out. I was just curious about your thought on this opposite.
Humbely,
Jason Farnsworth

Good question, but no the answer is the same. There is no cross block in Kenpo. One hand defends then the second hand "captures." to be a "X" block, both hands would have to be deployed simultaneously.

In "Defensive Cross" the mechanism is the same as "Obstructing the Storm." The left hand blocks and the right hand controls so the initial block can then capture. Try it, deploying one than the other.

Good question. I see you have your thinking cap on. You're not only asking good questions but, your questions are drawing logical comparisons to see if the conceptual idea holds up under scruitiny. Anytime you guide or capture and use both hands, from "Captured, to Defensive, to Raining," they are always deployed in succession never simultaneously. Sometimes the timing may be tighter than a simple syncopation and end up being Mora beat, but it's still the same in my experience.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rainman



Dear Yoda,

What do you think about the attack for cross of death. The cross is employed simultaneouos with the intent to block blood and possibley air. And I would be most interested in your opinion for defensive cross. As I understand it- there is a trapping -striking redirect. I have never thought about doing it as say 1/4 beat timing for the sicsor type application.

Thankyou
RM:asian:

Hey I'm taller than Yoda

Anyway, Sir You guys are really thinking. But consider this. "Cross of Death" is a offensive use of the mechanism. However even so, my good friend Gene LaBell will tell you one hand "Seizes" control, and the other "strikes" before locking up. Notice that on offense the mechanism essentially reverses itself. Instead of defending first and then moving to control, you control first than move to offense.

To defend on "Cross of Death" you must stop the second hand, because it is a knockout, striking the Vagus Nerve at the Carotid Artery. The Vagus nerve is very important because it controls Sinus Rythym. In our interpretation of the technique we employ an inward block to "check" the second hand. this technique is like "Squatting Sacrifice" in many ways. Squatting is a "throwaway" created to teach you some things that are possible AFTER the man is down.

However the "ideas" for "Squatting" in the Technique Manuals are ludicrous and WILL NOT WORK. You cannot bend down and Seize a man's leg while he's is actively holding you in a rear bear hug. You will get supplexed. if you sit down on his leg, you Pin it to the ground, so you can't lift it if you do bend down. This particular assault is addressed in other techniques, that's why I said it is a "throwaway." However our interpretation is completely different.

In "Cross of Death" you should react to his first hand. If he were to complete the assault, you will be knocked out. I teach it not as a "choke" but as a "grab and strike to choke" which is what it is.

Sidebar: Both of these techniques "ideas" are wrestling/grappling based from the early era.

I'm not sure what you mean about "Defensive Cross," maybe you hadn't read the other post yet. Let me know.

Honest, I am taller than Yoda Sir.:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka

Firstly, I'd like to thank Doc for sharing
his knowlegde of Kenpo. He has certainly made a few techniques run a lot smoother and more effective for me. THANK YOU.

Secondly, It just make sense to use quarter beat timing and double blocking even for a cross block.

In the old days when you would build up on knuckles and conditioned wrists, the "x" block was really a block and a jamming strike, specially against the shins. Or double sword strikes to the joints. Or used to trap attacking limbs to throw, redirect, or to pull. That is why the fists must be in vertical position (Palms facing sideways)

:asian:

You sir are absolutely correct. Someone like you who has a broader martial education realizes even in traditional arts it is not just basically a "cross" of the wrist to block.

Thnak you for the compliment and you are welcome. Whenever I have time I will always share my experiences and knowledge (as long as they don't run me away) There are no secrets, only things we don't know. American Kenpo is even better than we think it is.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth




Thanks again,
Now, when I got up this morning I notice another technique that I thought used the same action. This was Capturing the Storm. I was taught to use the cross block up then ride it back to the elbow hyperextension and wrist lock. Do you once again employ one hand "and then" the other hand? Again, curious on your view although I'm sure it's still the same.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

You are correct :asian: same concept. Right, left, right. Once you work one out, we can talk about another. Mr. Parker says, "Man who put to much on plate, can't eat all he has."

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rainman



Dear Yoda,

Didn't see the other post- Works for me. One question cross of death- so the attack is definitetly an offensive Kenpo technique in and of it self? That would hold true for all the grappling type attacks but not so much for some of the other attacks that seem to be singular in nature... would this be correct?

PS for example sword of destruction- Oh yeah Yoda- only looks small.

Absolutely. techniques are supposed to be studied from both the offensive and defensive perspectives, otherwise neither can be learned properly.

PPS Squating Sacrifice is dependant on rooting but not with the feet so much as the entire self. When that is done the person would be extremely hard to pick up, if at all even possible. I would say it uses some very advanced concepts to be executed with any success against an experienced grappler.

That is a serious observation. You are correct, however "rooting" as you call it cannot take place for our purposes with the legs spread so the technique would be negated anyway. There is "Misalignment Technology" that has to come into play here, but you're right. Did you use the phrase "Advanced Concepts?" I got in trouble when I put that on our patch. You're right on the money Sir. "Ummm, Good Jedi, you make."

"These are not the techniques you're looking for, move along."

 

[kenmpoka]

Firstly, I'd like to thank Doc for sharing
his knowlegde of Kenpo. He has certainly made a few techniques run a lot smoother and more effective for me. THANK YOU.

Secondly, It just make sense to use quarter beat timing and double blocking even for a cross block.

In the old days when you would build up on knuckles and conditioned wrists, the "x" block was really a block and a jamming strike, specially against the shins. Or double sword strikes to the joints. Or used to trap attacking limbs to throw, redirect, or to pull. That is why the fists must be in vertical position (Palms facing sideways)

:asian:

 

[Scott Bonner]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
Again ideally, if you plant that first kick you should be successful in getting the opponent to drop the club. [/B]

Would that really be true? I don't associate getting struck in the groin with opening my hand. If anything, my childhood memories involve rolling around with hands tightly clenched across my tummy.

I don't remember now what Sensei taught me that first time, but when I do the tech now I do the outward block turning into a wrist grab, keep their right hand dead while doing the other stuff, then disarm as I cross out (shift grip to club, strike up on bad guy's wrist to open grip), just in case they still have the club in hand.

As to whether it is realistic to have someone strike directly from above, I have no problem doing the strike and can see how one could put MoG into it, and there are different techniques for different striking angles. And, I've seen Sensei do the thing with giving a beginner a stick and seeing how they attack; they attacked with an overhand club. So, it seems like a good idea to keep to the book when first learning the tech.

Personally, I'd have done a baseball swing to the knees, but he didn't ask me.

Besides that, techs disappear in application eventually, right? It all becomes formulation once we've learned the how and why.

 

[Scott Bonner]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
My personal feeling is, if you are going to teach students, then teach them realistically. Explain to them that the overhead attack ain't all that's coming. Know what I mean... [/B]

Sure. That would come in the "what if" stage, I think. First, we learn in the ideal stage, to set the motion. Then, we deal with the "what if" possibilities, including following through with more attacks. Finally, we move beyond into formulation, which is still vague to me.

Seems to me that if all you do is techniques as written in the book, you are only learning one small piece of the system. The techniques as written are just a teaching tool, a means to an end, and only the first step in learning self defense. That's why one doesn't want to learn from tapes alone.

You are asking for the next step. Of course that teaching will happen. It may happen immediately, starting the "what if" process when the tech is first taught, or it may come later, depending on what the student is ready for.

So, let's try the what-if part and see how crazy this gets over the internet.

Which follow-through are you thinking needs to be analyzed? Assuming they started with the overhead club, then in the first move of the tech the club is neutralized, more or less, as that arm is blocked and held. What is the follow through (presumably already on the way as the club is being blocked), so we can come up with ways to deal with it?

Or, do you want to assume the first move of the tech was a botch and the club is still live? If so, how did we keep it from hitting us? Or are we now too busy crying and bleeding to handle the follow-through anyway?

As another side note, which means of stopping an overhead club is better suited to dealing with follow-through?
1) the parry then block and grab of Checking the Storm, leaving one of your hands dead (with the opponent's) and another hand live for defense or
2) the x-block and evasion of obstructing the storm, leaving one hand dead but both of your hands busy with the next move but also putting your opponents body between you and most of his/her weapons.

Understand, I don't know if I can help all that much in answering these questions. I'm just a purple belt, ya know?

 

[Scott Bonner]

Kenpo3631,

I just looked at your profile and found out that you are way ahead of me on training. I suspect I didn't understand your questions, 'cause I'm sure you already know everything I said. I'm posting this note so you don't take my longer note above as being disrespectful in some way.

 

[Scott Bonner]

Bringing in the overhead and switching to a round at the last second wouldn't require much modification at all, I would think. If you can think fast enough, then move on to something like the beginning of Calming the Storm. It's good to whack the bad guy a half beat sooner. In any case, staying with Cheking the Storm should still be possible, but I'd think you would have to move to 1:30 instead of 3 (as debated earlier), because if you move too far away from a roundhouse it will be hard to control the hand. (With the deflect and block against the overhead strike, you are controlling the path of the club more and can then grab the wrist more easily.) Grabbing the wrist may have to be skipped if you move to 3. No big loss, if the kicks work. The biggest question is can you stop the force of the club with that left hand block without being knocked off the relatively weak base as you are trying to move to a cat stance. Good timing would solve that, I'd think.

Now, if they do the switchup from overhead to a strike from the side, roundhouse style but lower on the body like to the ribs or lower body, then being faked into putting your hands high will be very bad for you -- good luck getting those hands down to the lower body again. The only thing that comes to mind then is to either keep stepping out of range (instead of the cat) which puts you more on the defensive and doesn't help at all, or shooting yourself forward inside the arc of the club with an attack, say a vert fist to face or, if you are quick enough, a strike to the throat (don't go for eyes -- the hand that flies up to the face will have a stick in it!). Neither option directly negates the club. Neither seems satisfactory to me.

Any other options for if you are faked, hands high and moving back into a cat to either 1:30 or 3, and the course of the club detours to the lower body, maybe moving ahead of the hands?

If there is a tech that covers this later in the system, just tell me the name and I'll watch for it when I get up that far.

As to stopping a club fast enough, I think it would all depend on reaction time. Compare the time it takes to do a powerful overhead club, from start (as soon as it can be "read") until actual contact to the time it takes to do the parry before the block in Checking the Storm. Obviously, the parry will be faster. The question is, will training make my reaction time faster than the difference? Not yet. But, there are lots of things that I don't move fast enough to stop yet. In all of them, I am hoping to become fast enough to eventually deal with them.

As for power of the strike, Checking the Storm seems to be more about re-directing the course of the club than stopping it. One doesn't have to use that much force to parry. The strength of the club strike is less important than trajectory and how much read time you get. Compare, if you will, a flying side kick. It's gonna smack the crap out of you if it hits straight on. So, take the extra read time to get out of the way, redirect, etc, and all that power is spent on air. Same idea, I think, just redirecting circular motion (in this case easily re-directable circular motion, as opposed to the circular motion in a roundhouse kick) instead of linear motion.

As to the x-block, whether you get whacked in the head depends on where on their wrist/hand you block, but, yes, there is that uncomfortable open feeling with both hands in the air. More importantly, Obstructing the storm includes moving off-center while you do the x-block, so that by the time you make contact, your head is already out of the line of travel for the club. That's one thing I like about the technique: it teaches me to evade when doing an x-block instead of trying to go straight in like when practicing from a horse stance.

 

[Scott Bonner]

How do you get this website to post in pieces like that? I'll put Kenpo3631's comments in quotes and then reply.

"Your opponent has many weapons to include two arms and two legs. If you step to 1:30 you are walking into the opponents back up weapon."

I haven't tried it on a body, so maybe 3 would work as well.

"Imagine the club was a machette. Would you want to try to grab your opponents wrist if he was using a machette? I use this analogy with my students to make them move out of the line of attack of the club. "

With the parry and block, you do move out of the way, as well, since you are shooting over to that cat stance. And, yes, I see the wrist grab as a nice bonus, not a requirement.

"Why would you want to stop the force of the club directly by blocking it? Have you ever been hit with a billy club or escrima stick? Just a light rap usually does it for most. The key is to "move the target" (move the weapon, move the target, move both). Get out of the way and kick him in the yah yah's. Remember this is a beginners technique."

I was just thinking about the problems with continuing to do the tech as written, except against a roundhouse. The tech calls for a left hand block, so I assumed a left hand block. The changed orbit of the strike makes the block less of a deflection and more force-on-force -- which may argue for not using a block against a roundhouse club unless you are also moving forward, as in Calming the Storm. The block would not be to the stick itself, of course, but to the forearm. I was also thinking that the instability of the cat stance would be greater with force coming from the side (as opposed to coming from above in the written technique).

No, I haven't been hit by an escrima stick, but I don't have to get hit with the stick. If the stick hits, I failed.

That it is a beginners tech may be why it is written for overhead club instead of roundhouse club -- it's easier to deal with overhead than round.

Didn't you say you teach your students that the attack is a roundhouse club? How do you teach them to deal with it? Or was that someone else?

"If the overhead club attack is delivered by a "commited person" (comitted to the attack), then he should have to re-cock his weapon to hit you with roundhouse change up, giving you some read time. The whole key is for the opponent to commit to the attack."

He wouldn't have to re-cock much. We learn to make strikes from point of origin with minimal cocking action necessary for power. Why wouldn't they? I can see in my head (for what that's worth) how to do it with very little read time, certainly enough to fake me out at my current abilities.

So, I don't think the "what-if" of feignting an overhead and then delivering a roundhouse to the body is so far-fetched.

BTW, I think we have a slightly different idea of what "what if" means. I think you are seeing it as "what if the first step didn't work". I, possibly because of my limited experience dealing with "what if's", see it as dealing with a lot of things, including "what if the guy is feingting, what if the first move doesn't work, what if the guy is throwing a combo, what if..." and a dozen other things. Basically, taking the movement already learned and finding other situations where it will work, situations where it won't, ways to counter it, and what to do if it is countered. My understanding may be too vague and all-encompassing. I don't claim to understand the "what if" or "formulation" stuff yet. I can't.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Don't know but it seems some have forgotten the name and theme of the technique, CHECKING The Storm. I've been taught that you need not touch the arm swinging the club, that you simply move up your circle and kick em the jimmy while your hands are cking, of course followed by the right side kick the their right knee, followed by a right looping backnuckle. Of course I've seen about a thousand different variations on this technique to the point where some exclude it from their teaching. Me, I like to know them all for the comparison.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

If I could offer a couple of comments on this string--which I liked reading--both would have to do with teaching the technique to beginners.

Sure, there are all sorts of "what-ifs," to be considered, and I particularly agree with the posters who noted that the attack can easily be modified into a roundhouse swing. However, what's the base tech teaching? I'd argue it's to get the hell out of the way, off line, up the circle, etc. etc...and that this dovetails with the way that previous yellow belt techniques (and Short 1) teach retreating first. In other words, I think that Checking the Storm first teaches, and foremost teaches, don't stand under a club.

The second thing I'd note (and it's something I'm struggling with myself) is that a lot of our problems with techniques come out of our tendency to prioritize the hands: we start motion with the upper body, we think of power in terms of the shoulders, we keep worrying about getting the hands into the right position...when in fact it's that first step to the side that counts most. It's just that, together with some of the other posters, I keep worrying about getting the hands to "fit," when I haven't moved to where I should be. And when I do, the hand problem usually goes away...

Thanks,
Robert

 

[TwistofFat]

I was wondering why Checking the Storm was taught in yellow (written to step up the circle) and not Evading the Storm (P7) (retreating from the attack and getting out of the line of attack, easier to do than CtS at Y7) when I came across this thread. I see similarities to Checking the Storm in other techniques (snipits in Unfurling Crane and others), but am unaware of this base move used later.

Attacking Mace, Evading the Storm, Calming the Storm, etc seem to have the same base. Did I just answer my own question (we have already done it in Yellow, now onto something else)?

My question above still remains, but if you have not read this thread please do. It is one of the best I have found on MT.com.

Regards - Glenn.

 

[teej]

Kenpo 3631 brought up a good point when he said ideally. Remember that when we are teaching a new student Checking the Storm, we are teaching in the ideal phase. The more advanced student would start kicking around the what if stage as we are predominantly doing here. Then as they progress, the move onto the formulation phase, which is a lot of what we seem to be doing here.
Just to use an example of how I teach the technique:
Step out to 1:30 with the right foot while parrying with the right hand. Slide into a 45 Degree Cat as you execute a left EOB. Execute a left fron kick to the groin and follow with a right knife edge kick to the groin.
Now depending on the distance and the elvel of the practioner involved after the left front kick is delivered, i may have them change the weapon to a right twist kick. In both instances,if they are close enough to the attacker, I have them follow up with a downward/diagonal back fist to the temple/or mastoid.

Just wondering why you follow with a knife kick to the same target that you just hit with the front kick? And do you mean knife edge kick as in a side kick? A side kick weapon doesn't fit the groin target.

I'm just wondering your thinking for this in case I am missing something. I teach with the R knife kick to the attackers lead knee to cancel out the back leg.

Teej

 

[Kenpodoc]

Just wondering why you follow with a knife kick to the same target that you just hit with the front kick? And do you mean knife edge kick as in a side kick? A side kick weapon doesn't fit the groin target.

I'm just wondering your thinking for this in case I am missing something. I teach with the R knife kick to the attackers lead knee to cancel out the back leg.

Teej

We do a R side Kick (Knife edge kick is a side kick) to the far leg (Right Leg) which turns your opponent's R arm away and ideally distracts him enough to make the back fist to the head an open effectve shot.

Jeff

 

[Goldendragon7]

We do a R side Kick (Knife edge kick is a side kick) to the far leg (Right Leg) which turns your opponent's R arm away and ideally distracts him enough to make the back fist to the head an open effectve shot. Jeff

Oh right! ........ I'm so sick of you spouting off .... who do you think you are..... :flammad: Mr. Kenpo or something....... Why I have a mind to ..... ????
hey wait.... what you said is correct..... opps...... sorry, forget about the first few lines.... (I was just kidding anyways.....hee hee)

:asian:

 

[KenpoTess]

Teej, methinks Seig was posting when half asleep.. it's a kick to the R. leg

~Tess