Change, Change and More Change

[MJS]

In another thread, Ras made this post. Nice post, as usual, but this part caught my eye, so this is what I wanted to focus this thread on.

I think that Doc or somebody mentioned that GGMEP was considering katas or some form of training regarding firearms.I know Doc mentioned that GGMEP was still developing Kenpo,adding deleting and altering at a very late time in his life (and maybe all the way until his untimely passing).I think very much that we should do the same,and that American Kenpo has PLENTY of space...in fact,IS DESIGNED...to encapsulate and manifest whatever we want to put in it.Doc is a long time trainer of police,former or current Sheriff,knows his way around the pistol and I bet he's used his Kenpo during the line of duty too.He and others here would be good sources to refer to regarding American Kenpo--which is DIFFERENT than ED PARKER'S American Kenpo--and firearms.

Unfortunately, I never met GM Parker, but I do believe that he would have continued to modify, change, etc, the art of Kenpo. I also feel that there're people out there that are doing that. They're making changes, ie: Mills and Speakman. Yes, I know those 2 names always surface, but IMO, they surface because those are 2 of the people who stand out in my mind, with their changes.

So, this begs the next question...anytime people talk about change, 9 times out of 10, the next thing is....Well, how can you make a change, if you dont understand the art?? So...should people not adapt to the current time? What does it mean to "understand the art"?

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

In another thread, Ras made this post. Nice post, as usual, but this part caught my eye, so this is what I wanted to focus this thread on.



Unfortunately, I never met GM Parker, but I do believe that he would have continued to modify, change, etc, the art of Kenpo. I also feel that there're people out there that are doing that. They're making changes, ie: Mills and Speakman. Yes, I know those 2 names always surface, but IMO, they surface because those are 2 of the people who stand out in my mind, with their changes.

So, this begs the next question...anytime people talk about change, 9 times out of 10, the next thing is....Well, how can you make a change, if you dont understand the art?? So...should people not adapt to the current time? What does it mean to "understand the art"?

I think that change is a great thing, but if you do not know the basic format of the original how would you even know what to change? that is what understand the art means.
I picture it as a great chef having made a 9 course meal, that is full of intricate preparations and flavors mixed together.
There is always room to change and alter that 9 course meal, but if you do not understand what makes that meal great to begin with and you just start tossing hamburger meat and a guppy on a plate and calling it surf and turf your not really changing anything, your making some pile of crap that does nobody but a dog any good.
to be honest I look at Kenpo as a a big blueprint. Once you get through the material, which to be honest is a 3-7 year process on average, then you have the framework to go explore anything else you want in more detail... grappling....firearms....knifes...any weapon..any style, and have a much better point with which to ask the questions that matter. why it works, why it doesnt work.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Maybe a better example would be a person who drives a Ford Expedition and thinks.. hey I can change this and make it a 4x4 by putting 40 inch tires on it and a roll cage, some mud flaps, and replace the hood and fenders with fiberglass and slap some stickers on the bumpers...
it might work, but its not going to be as good an adaption as it could be if that person really understood the vehicle, and the terrain he was going to want to off road in and then changed everything on the Expedition to match the terrain..

 

[bushidomartialarts]

The most important thing about changing kenpo (I got this from Dave Hebler, with whom I was privileged to study for a while in 03 and 04) is to remember that the techniques aren't really self-defense techniques.

They're lesson plans. Nothing more.

If you understand what they are intended to teach, then adapting them to fit a specific student's needs, or to accommodate for changes in reality -- such as the fact that nobody attacks with that overhand Psycho knife stab anymore -- is pretty simple.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The most important thing about changing kenpo (I got this from Dave Hebler, with whom I was privileged to study for a while in 03 and 04) is to remember that the techniques aren't really self-defense techniques.

They're lesson plans. Nothing more.

If you understand what they are intended to teach, then adapting them to fit a specific student's needs, or to accommodate for changes in reality -- such as the fact that nobody attacks with that overhand Psycho knife stab anymore -- is pretty simple.

Just my 2 cents.

Check the statistics, and come back with that one.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Maybe a better example would be a person who drives a Ford Expedition and thinks.. hey I can change this and make it a 4x4 by putting 40 inch tires on it and a roll cage, some mud flaps, and replace the hood and fenders with fiberglass and slap some stickers on the bumpers...
it might work, but its not going to be as good an adaption as it could be if that person really understood the vehicle, and the terrain he was going to want to off road in and then changed everything on the Expedition to match the terrain..

I don't know how that relates to kenpo, but you have given me some excellent ideas on upgrading my Buick Skylark.:mst:
Sean

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

MJS that vast majority of people always fight change once some thing is established. However, I think you are absolutely right that GM Parker would have continued to change and improve his system incorporating grappling, etc. as the years went on. He was someone who was innovative and wanted to grow. I don't think he would have sat around and said, "this is it and all of it"!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Check the statistics, and come back with that one.
Sean

Which stats? Overhand knife attack?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Which stats? Overhand knife attack?

Yeah, or just watch an old episode of Jerry Springer and then come tell us nobody ever throws over hand attacks.
Sean

 

[bushidomartialarts]

My info's from LEO and military training I've participated in. Mostly anecdotal, but probably accurate. You're much more likely to get lateral slashes, back and forth, with a knife these days. Folks have seen too many movies where the stunt director actually had some training.

Fair enough though that it might happen. But at the ratio our kenpo knife defenses seem to indicate? No, sir.

It gets even worse if you think about what a skilled knife or stick fighter would do. Our kenpo doesn't begin to approach it. Dave was pretty adamant about this....people have gotten more sophisticated about fighting since GGMEP developed the original curriculum. Parker would have changed them to accommodate.

 

[Blindside]

My info's from LEO and military training I've participated in. Mostly anecdotal, but probably accurate. You're much more likely to get lateral slashes, back and forth, with a knife these days. Folks have seen too many movies where the stunt director actually had some training.

Fair enough though that it might happen. But at the ratio our kenpo knife defenses seem to indicate? No, sir.

It gets even worse if you think about what a skilled knife or stick fighter would do. Our kenpo doesn't begin to approach it. Dave was pretty adamant about this....people have gotten more sophisticated about fighting since GGMEP developed the original curriculum. Parker would have changed them to accommodate.

I'll be the first to say that the standard defenses in Kenpo don't address the "trained attacker" but from every stat that I have seen the two most common attacks are the overhead psycho attack and the straight thrust, though it is more like an uppercut than the common lunging attack you often see in Kenpo. Fortunately for all of us, most people aren't trained.

Edit: And I should point out that my training in Kali involves lots of training in exactly the sort of "Psycho knife stab" that you are saying that nobody does anymore, and that is from the offensive standpoint, not the defensive.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I'll be the first to say that the standard defenses in Kenpo don't address the "trained attacker" but from every stat that I have seen the two most common attacks are the overhead psycho attack and the straight thrust, though it is more like an uppercut than a lunging attack. Fortunately for all of us, most people aren't trained.

Edit: And I should point out that my training in Kali involves lots of training in exactly the sort of "Psycho knife stab" that you are saying that nobody does anymore, and that is from the offensive standpoint, not the defensive.

I'd be interested in seeing some of those stats. It's different from what I've been told, but again my info is anecdotal, not statistical.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'd be interested in seeing some of those stats. It's different from what I've been told, but again my info is anecdotal, not statistical.

Exactly!

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

MJS that vast majority of people always fight change once some thing is established. However, I think you are absolutely right that GM Parker would have continued to change and improve his system incorporating grappling, etc. as the years went on. He was someone who was innovative and wanted to grow. I don't think he would have sat around and said, "this is it and all of it"!

I don't know if he wanted to incorporate grappling, as opposed to being anti grappling.
he has a plenty of trianing in Judo and Jiu Jitsu, and had plenty of grappling experience and knowledge. I think he created Kenpo to be a street specific art that could defeat a grappler.
Do not get me wrong I love grappling, I have been training in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for years now, I just think that with his early training in arts that had heavy grappling components, and the fact that he did not put much in the way of ground work in the system would suggest he was going a different way entirely, not that he couldn't, jsut that he chose not to partake in the grappling aspects.
Talking to several people who knew him personally, and trained with him at his house(I did not start training Kenpo until after the man had passed) they have all said he had folders with massive amounts of information on grappling, and ideas on grappling in file cabinets that he kept with other information as well. I have heard some state that he was working on grappling curriculums, it would be interesting to see what he would have come up with, or did come up with but never released for mass consumption, but who knows. Unfortunately unless his family releases some of his notes, and work on grappling at some point we have nothing to do but guess.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Grappling as a kenpoist is fighting the other guy's kind of fight.

But, kenpo should incorporate some training in how to get out of a grapple.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

My info's from LEO and military training I've participated in. Mostly anecdotal, but probably accurate. You're much more likely to get lateral slashes, back and forth, with a knife these days. Folks have seen too many movies where the stunt director actually had some training.

Fair enough though that it might happen. But at the ratio our kenpo knife defenses seem to indicate? No, sir.

It gets even worse if you think about what a skilled knife or stick fighter would do. Our kenpo doesn't begin to approach it. Dave was pretty adamant about this....people have gotten more sophisticated about fighting since GGMEP developed the original curriculum. Parker would have changed them to accommodate.

Changed what to accomodate? the skeletal groundwork, or framework is there, all that you have to do is drill it.
I think the system is a base.. a couple years(2-7 depending on how often and how serious you train) to get the basic material down(black belt) then you can start working the advanced stuff with a solid base... at leas thats how I look at it.. none of the stuff we do up to and including black belt is super advanced, its basic, its learning how and why to move, and what directions you can move. Once you get that down you are ready to work on that advanced material, ready to explore how to deal with trained opponents.. I mean really how much training do you think you need to deal with a trained opponent... assuming a trained opponent has spent 2-7 years getting trained.. do you not think you would need more training then that to deal with them?

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Grappling as a kenpoist is fighting the other guy's kind of fight.

But, kenpo should incorporate some training in how to get out of a grapple.

oh I agree.. I think the avoidance is there in the system to be worked... grip fighting, fighting against the front and rear bearhug, or against the tackle.... what other ways are there really to get into a "grapple" what is not really there is what to do once you are on the ground... I absolutely agree with that, at least how it related to positioning, and advancement or escape from positioning, submissions and protections from those submissions...
to bad we don't have him around to see how he would have addressed things like sports fighting, the different venues, or if he would have ignored them all together and worked on something different. I think that spending more then a few minutes thinking about it is a waste of time though, and would be better spent asking the masters of today what they are doing on it.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I don't know how that relates to kenpo, but you have given me some excellent ideas on upgrading my Buick Skylark.:mst:
Sean

if you do all of that to a buick Skylark, I will send you a tenth degree black belt in Ghetto offroading. complete with certificate!

 

[MJS]

I think that change is a great thing, but if you do not know the basic format of the original how would you even know what to change? that is what understand the art means.
I picture it as a great chef having made a 9 course meal, that is full of intricate preparations and flavors mixed together.
There is always room to change and alter that 9 course meal, but if you do not understand what makes that meal great to begin with and you just start tossing hamburger meat and a guppy on a plate and calling it surf and turf your not really changing anything, your making some pile of crap that does nobody but a dog any good.
to be honest I look at Kenpo as a a big blueprint. Once you get through the material, which to be honest is a 3-7 year process on average, then you have the framework to go explore anything else you want in more detail... grappling....firearms....knifes...any weapon..any style, and have a much better point with which to ask the questions that matter. why it works, why it doesnt work.

Good points and I couldnt agree more. But, while I dont disagree with your timeframe that you propose, I think that some others may disagree. I mean, I've seen people tell others, who have more time in that that, that they dont understand the system, if they need to make changes.

Frankly I disagree....if someone can't grasp something after 7yrs, well....

 

[MJS]

Maybe a better example would be a person who drives a Ford Expedition and thinks.. hey I can change this and make it a 4x4 by putting 40 inch tires on it and a roll cage, some mud flaps, and replace the hood and fenders with fiberglass and slap some stickers on the bumpers...
it might work, but its not going to be as good an adaption as it could be if that person really understood the vehicle, and the terrain he was going to want to off road in and then changed everything on the Expedition to match the terrain..

LOL, funny you use that analogy. I've said the same thing when the topic was on the use of the knife in Kenpo. If you dont understand the blade, how're you going to adapt it to Kenpo? I used a Honda and a Ferrari though....no matter how much time and effort is put into the little Honda, it'll never be a Ferrari.