Challenging the dojang instructor

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by shieldg, Mar 16, 2009.

  1. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    Interesting.

    If it is not uncommon, then I guess the challenger getting his behind kicked is not uncommon either...
     
  2. Brad Dunne

    Brad Dunne Brown Belt

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    I am living in asia. I was surpised by the responds some gave me because in my country, challenging instructor is quite common.

    It would have been nice if we originally knew you were from another country. We thought that you were in the U.S. and that sort of mindset of inviting the instructor to fight is no longer acceptable here. Although there have been times I wish it still was.... Why were you surprised with our answers?
     
  3. LordOfWu

    LordOfWu Orange Belt

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    That's the impression I was getting. I would assume then that you would just notify your instructor and let him deal with it. I am curious, would you think less of your instructor if he just turned him away at the door? I am truly curious, and in no way would judge on your response. In the US I think many would look down on the challenger, but I don't know that this is true to the martial art spirit depending on the type of challenge.

    I would be interested to hear more about how your culture would respond to this situation, and I'm not sure anyone in this country can truly give you the best advice...anyone else on here live in a place where this is more normal, accepted?
     
  4. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    it used to be that way here in america, i am sure most of us have heard the stories about the 60's and 70's

    lots of challenge matches, lots of people getting messed up.

    of course, no one sued back then.

    I understand, I have, at times wanted to go to the dojo where I knew the instructor was crap, and was basically ripping off his students, and call him on it, but I never have.
     
  5. shieldg

    shieldg White Belt

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    Yes it happens and its funny. In my country, its the instructor duty to accept challenges and praticioner has to defend their art when challenged.
     
  6. shieldg

    shieldg White Belt

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    Instructors have to accept challenges and people who pratice this art has to defend it, not by reasoning but by the fist. In brazil i know its common though.
     
  7. shieldg

    shieldg White Belt

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    I guess US is different. I was reading some boxing stuffs and the 60s 70s american boxers does challenge each other by going to their gym. In my country, boxers get challenged by other gyms without notification, they just come into your gym and get into the ring.

    In the US, it might be considered assault and arrogance. In my country, martial art instructors have to prove their worth and usually, the students will not follow a passive instructor.
     
  8. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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    Sounds kinda nutz. Guys just going around challenging each other? Talk about a quick way to completely ruin your health.
     
  9. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Here in the US, it is uncommon. But if I go to another school and challenge a school owner, so long as he or she accepts the challenge, willingly steps into the ring, and the match stays within the accepted rules of a match, I'm on good legal ground. It isn't assult; its one person saying 'I'd like to try my art against your art' essentially.

    Now, if I go into the TKD school up the road, even unannounced and do the same thing, I may be a jerk, but I'm still okay as long as I don't just go in and start beating on the school owner.

    Now, if I go in, introduce myself and then throw a crescent kick and take the guys face off without saying anything more, then I'm in deep doo-doo legally.

    That is the distiction in the US.

    I personally liked fencing master Adam Crown's approach: you sweat it out with the beginner students and show well with the advanced students in regular class time and prove your a competent fencer, then fix your attitude; fencing the master is a reward for good fencing and mature behavior and the master's skills are valued and not to be put on display for just anybody.

    As for what you should do, informing your master and letting him deal with it if it happens is the best course of action. You've done your part by letting him know that a challenge is potentially coming. Not much you can do beyond that.

    Daniel
     
  10. GlassJaw

    GlassJaw Orange Belt

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    Firstly, while he might not have been entirely joking, he may have
    had no intention of actually doing it. . .he just likes entertaining
    the notion.

    As to what I think you should do:
    Just let your instructor know (privately, of course). I'm sure he
    has met the type before. . .everyone has. Giving your instructor
    a bit of warning that it may happen will allow him to better decide
    how to deal with it. Being put on the spot by a surprise challenge
    does not lend itself to formulating a well reasoned response.

    (Besides, you bringing up the issue might also give your instructor
    the opportunity to explain to you and your fellow students how
    he expects you to view "tough guys".)

    And don't worry too much that your friend's attitude will reflect
    badly on you in your instructor's eyes. Everyone at one time
    or another has had a friend make an *** of themself. The fact
    that you show concern now for his loutish attitude may look
    better for you than trying to publicly dissociate yourself from
    him afterwards, if he does make the challenge.

    If there is a challenge, your TKD instructor will probably want
    to know who your friend's karate instructor is, so they can
    discuss what to do about him. I think it would be rare for
    an instructor of just about any martial art (including the
    various forms of karate and TKD) to be pleased that one of
    their own students was behaving that way. The sentiments
    underlying our Five Tenets are hardly unique to TKD.

    Dan
     
  11. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    We had the infamous Dojo wars here in Chicago with counte Dante and the Green Dragon Society. The last battle of note was where the school that had the weapons won. People died. People were arrested etc.
     
  12. terryl965

    terryl965 <center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR

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    I remember hearing about those wars, man how time hasflown by.
     
  13. Balrog

    Balrog Master of Arts

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    Two thoughts immediately crossed my mind:

    1. Your "friend" has been watching way too many bad chop-socky movies.
    2. You need to get a whole lot of gone between you and him.
     
  14. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    yeah, the dojo wars were the last WELL KNOWN battle.

    thats cuz texans dont go to the press.

    I know for a fact that challenge matches happened here until at least 1980 or so.

    the rule was "if you open up a school within 20 miles of another, senior instructor, you better go and ask permission."

    if you didnt, you could expect a group of blackbelts to show up, call you out and smash you up. Plus, they would break all your mirrors, etc, whatever you had, they would destroy.

    Actually, I know of one case where this happened in 1886
     
  15. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    1886 or 1986?

    Daniel
     
  16. bluekey88

    bluekey88 Senior Master

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    rofl. Kung fu fight at the Ok Corrall!

    roundhouse kicks at 10 paces :D

    Peace,
    Erik
     
  17. IcemanSK

    IcemanSK El Conquistador nim!

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    We had an incident in our school when I was a gup student that was along the lines of what could be described as a "challenge match." Here's what happened & here's how my master dealt with it in the early 80's.

    Two BB's in our school were sparring before class on a hot summer night. One was a decorated local guy who had won 2nd place in the 1981 world Pro TKD championships in Seoul. The other guy was a young Korean master who my master was grooming to either take over that school or teaching to run his own school.

    As these 2 were sparring, (no pads, no cups, no mouthpieces) one unappologitic cheap shot after another from both men & soon it was an all out fight! (My master had not come to the dojang yet that night.) One guy wanted to take it "outside" & the other was willing to oblige him. The other BB's were pulling them apart as my master walked in.

    My master told both guys to go home that night & that he'd speak to them later. The young Korean master was told never came back into our dojang. The "local hero" was told the same thing, yet every 6 months, he would come back & beg to let back to train with us. My master never let him come back.

    Looking back at it more than 20 years, I still think this was the best course of action despite the cost to my master's business. (The local BB brought in students & the young master was a big help to my master).

    Whether in house or from the outside, I don't "dojang wars" as being helpful to a school.
     
  18. JadeDragon3

    JadeDragon3 Black Belt

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    I hate to be the bearer of bad new but although those high kicks and jump spinning hook kicks may look pretty they are pretty useless in a real fight. Your teacher may beat this bully but I hope he doesn't use those type kicks in a real fight otherwise he may just get beat up. This is just my thought though.
     
  19. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    But it would be pretty hillarious if the teacher purposefully beat the guy using those kicks just to add extra embarrassment.

    Daniel
     
  20. Miles

    Miles Senior Master

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    Sorry for the OT comment, but you can read old Black Belt magazines which have several interviews with John K, aka Count Dante.123
     

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