Certain TKD Tech.

[Marginal]

Doesn't even take hard and heavy really though. Just put down some mats and teach breakfalls. Get sweeps and holds and throws in there along with the hitting. Even then you could still get away with less contact while better integrating the stuff that's taught. (IMO at least.) It's not too far removed from the tournament sparring rules in several Karate organizations, so people seem to be able to take it without running away in total fear for their lives.

Meh. It's mainly a rhetorical question. I just wish the answer wasn't automatically "Well, go somewhere else/find like minded people and train." You'd think there would be some elemetns within any given organization with the political motivation to shake things up from time to time.

 

[fissure]

From one of my posts on this page:

That is why sport sparring cannot become the only form of combat training that is practiced. A wide array of situations should be worked through, striking, grappling (standing and ground work),ect. all at ranges, as you obviously know! These things are universal among MA, TKD included

I don't think we are in dissagreement about anything!

 

[Marginal]

Heh. Yeah, I was just making a comment, not trying to argue about much of anything.

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

Apologies again for not being descript enough. The throw "Uchimata" is the inner thigh reaping or lifting throw. The punch to palm motion, followed by the arms positions afterward, are to setup and secure the head and arm of the opponent closely to you as you release a twisting rising high side kick IN BETWEEN THEIR LEGS. The kicking legs motion upward is lifting inside the thigh that is opposite the side of the arm being secured. This causes their leg to be reaped and lifted very high as your upending force causes their body to roll around your hips to the side where you are securing their arm. That arm is pulled/guided down while using head control on the back of their head from the other hand. By using the securing/cupping motion of the palm, under the elbow as they are falling, their own body weight coming down snaps their elbow joint in the palm of your hand. The key there is making sure the opponents forearm is secured into your armpit. The spear hand down is an attack to the suprasternal notch which of course is a killing blow.
I hope my typing makes sense of this for you. If the Uchimata throw using your kicking leg isn't clear enough in my words, pick up any decent Judo book using a depiction of the thrower and the lights will go off over your head concerning that "rising side kick". It is a vicious application when described. A summary: A throat or nose punch, after a Carotid knife hand, a painful scraping side kick along the inner thighs femoral tract while moving the kicking leg up towards the groin, the groin muscles are then stretched or ripped propelling the throw as their elbow is broken during flight toward the hard ground and then the throat is rendered. A Bummer.


The separation of free sparring, self defense and patterns is to allow proper learning of each individually. There are key focal points in each that must be developed first before the successful integration of all can take place. Yes, I am saying it is possible and I have been doing it for some time. I know this is hard to visualize for a lot of people who have trained a certain way for years. It is this level of development that must be sought after to feel "whole" in what one has been doing seperate for so long. This is a common point of stagnation/frustration that is just as hard as the "advanced" apps. transition phase. A lot of students don't go any further with it because they either don't know how or think it is blasphemous to some dogma handed to them. There are a high number of students that get weeded out at this juncture too, due to boredom, frustration or both.

The example of the chambering being the true movement in many blocks is a good place to see where the integration takes place. Once the advanced apps. are being realized and practiced with a partner, the safety given the blocker, through position alone, enables that same person to apply it to his or her free sparring AND self defense. Just concentrating on the footwork or stances is the best place to start putting it all together. The "blind side" of the opponent is sought after in many self defense and advanced apps. Advanced sparring is NO DIFFERENT. If anyone does not understand my explanation, please look at my posts on the thread "How to spar a Flamingo fighter". I think that is the correct thread title (?). Also my posts on "Sparring against a Puncher". The "awkward" Front Stance is addressing something earlier alluded to. The opponents centerline and stepping off of it around the opponents FORWARD side. This puts your centerline adjacent to your opponents BLIND SPOT. If you have someone standing left side forward in a sparring stance and you step at a 45 deg. angle w/your right foot forward, outside their left, they are in deep doo doo. Their stance is crossed up and you are set for delivery. This is what the front stance in your forms does for free sparring and self defense. The Thai fighters use this forward step to deliver bone crushing cross body roundhouses with the rear leg out of the "front stance". That step moves away from their opponents power side into their blind spot. The left r.h. kick is fired as soon as the lead right leg touches down. I fluster my sparring partners frequently with this tactic. I got it from stepping into a front stance for years. A front stance from my forms! The hand chambering or drawing in your forms many times addresses dilemmas presented when caught flat footed during an attack in free sparring as well as self defense. The two hand knife chambering motion itself can cover you from groin to nose when being kicked during self defense or free sparring. The releasing action into a throw or joint lock is just not applied to your free sparring partner is all. The covering and deflecting motion is plenty enough to subvert their intent. In self defense, the forward release of the two knife high can be a leg lock against a kick as mentioned discussing Koryo earlier. I highly recommend a book titled "Sabaki method" by Ninomiya and Zorensky to anyone interested in the blind side concept I have tried to explain. Proper blindside manipulation is common to ALL stiking arts. The stepping off at a slight angle and forward motion of the common front stance is a strong foundation for live, dynamic applications if understood. Cult members need not apply! (Joking, honest!)

white belt

p.s.
Wasn't Frank Sinatra "Chairman of The Borg"? Maybe it's the song "I get a KICK out of you!" I'm referencing?

 

[fissure]

Marginal - You're preaching to the quire! I had all the arguing I care to have on other threads here at Martial Talk.I'm gunna do my best to stick to discussing the kinds of things that this thread has centered on.

 

[fissure]

White Belt, maybe you missed it , but from one of my prior posts:

It has been a long time since I trained in Judo, so the name of this throw meens nothing to me, however - I assume ( always risky!) that you are refering to the "twisting hip throw" that can be derived from the knife block, punch, turn w/lower spear attack sequence. The throw brings to light the otherwise pointless motion of forcefully pulling both hands to the "pivot" hip.

Have you noticed that your descriptions are always far longer than mine?

 

[fissure]

If the Uchimata throw using your kicking leg isn't clear enough in my words, pick up any decent Judo book using a depiction of the thrower and the lights will go off over your head concerning that "rising side kick".

As you can see from my last post this is another application that I've already found.
The lights went off in my head, when I was told that the "forcefull rechamber" after the punch too palm motion was me pulling my atackers uper torso toward my hip while I was side kicking them! Have you ever tried this? It's impossible , for me at least!

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

Yes, I agree. You are more succinct than I. I wanted to be sure my thoughts were coming off clearly is all. The tide of common opinion is further against me without clarification too. The seeds of doubt gestate in the smallest of crevices, you know. So, is the ITF kinda' cultish?

The resuscitation method for Uchimata involves palm slaps to the back and sides of the head. I believe the Japanese term is "Wotsamata?".

white belt

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

The pull you are refering to is done a split second prior to the kicking legs lifting motion. The pull is actually gripped with the punching hand, after the punch, at their upper tricep/shoulder area or near the elbow just above, depending on partner size. Your arm/elbow clamps down on their arm to be broken soon thereafter. The cupped hand that was punched into is wrapped around the back of their head and/or neck or underhooked through their other armpit, if you are feeling nice. If you aren't, you palm their chin with your cupped hand, after the punch, you force the head to rotate violently in the direction of the throw and they either go along or get their neck broken. The cranking of the chin back and around goes in the same circular direction as your pivoting posted foot and arm gripping pull. While you are pulling, your posted leg and upper body turn 180 deg. as the kick is executed. The posted legs toes point opposite of the direction of the kick, causing the opponent to spin around your hip and off your kicking leg. The securing arm then pulls up with the palm and snaps theirs. When your kicking leg comes down, you are in a type of front stance over your victim. Try the head control feature with your palm on their chin. They will WANT to be thrown! Yes, I have this working like butter with different sizes of partners.

white belt

p.s.
Good thing we aren't part of a cult or something!

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt

Good thing we aren't part of a cult or something!

What point is there to including this in every post you make?

 

[TkdWarrior]

Intresting discussion u got here guys...
wat did i miss? let's see
1. proper Description of Patterns
2. Sparring
3. grappling

i do like ur discussions about finding techniques from the patterns n i do believe that other parts of TKD(sparring/grappling etc) are part of patterns but
when u start teaching all of it as a different techniques then it's bit easy to learn TKD(that's why soooo many TKD school) but saying that TKD left the tricks/technques won't be rite(even by TKDist himself), i'll say that TKD isn't complete art by any means but when one can easily learn most of techniques(which r described here)then i don't think one hav to make fuss over this.

A lot of students don't go any further with it because they either don't know how or think it is blasphemous to some dogma handed to them.

hmm that's intresting, i used to think that students doesn't go any further due to rigidity of their ownself... if u look with open eyes u can really go further...
u know wat else i blame for this...
our Masters...why? because none of them hav a history like Wong Fei Hung/Hung kai kwan none of them can fly or shoot chi balls, noone involve with No Touch KO's if any single TKD Master can do that i'll bet We'll Kick Some Serious As$
-TkdWarrior-

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by Marginal
What point is there to including this in every post you make?

Haha, hes just mad because someone thinks differently. Its bound to happen after awhile. Maybe Ill go hang out in the Kung Fu forum for awhile and tell them how to do their patterns. LOL.

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by fissure
The current WTF Kukkiwon Textbook is 766 pages. Not exactly War And Peace, and no doubt shorter that the ITF encyclopedia - but certainly not the book you have.As I understand it there is but one Official ITF manual, the same is true for the WTF.

From your post Bagatha, I get the feeling that you don't find a use for forms other than "doing" forms. You don't feel that poomse/kata hold the key to a MA? If that is their only purpose, do you think that a MA could remove forms from training and suffer no consequences?
I'm not looking for a fight here, I'm interested in your views on these things.

Yeah I dont know if I have the "official" one here or not, but it is pretty old. 1989. Oh well, whatever, it was just a passing thought that maybe the reason it was so much shorter was because there wasnt a name given to every little thing like the other one.

I think that Patterns/Kata whatever you call it can be removed and supplimented with similar floor excercises and the art would not miss it yes. They are easily replaceble. I do however enjoy them very much, for that reason alone, "I" would miss them. But like I said I dont think overall people would be lesser fighters because of it.

 

[fissure]

Bagatha - Lesser fighters? - probably not. But I think they might be lesser Martial Artists. It is a common held dogma that forms are what separates Traditional MA, from their newer Mixed MA cousins. You seem not to agree with this.
Do you feel that the ability to simply fight is the begining and end of a MA practitioner?

 

[fissure]

White Belt,

The pull you are refering to is done a split second prior to the kicking legs lifting motion. The pull is actually gripped with the punching hand......

Man, you love to describe things I already know!

I think that I'm fairly sure you are busting balls with the ITF cult angle - but not completly! Maybe someone had a bed exp. at some point?Hmmmm....

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
...I think they might be lesser Martial Artists. It is a common held dogma that forms are what separates Traditional MA, from their newer Mixed MA cousins. You seem not to agree with this.
Do you feel that the ability to simply fight is the begining and end of a MA practitioner?

I was going to answer something on the previous page but I'll do it now. Personally what's being lessened is the mentality of people. In this day and age "usually" people want something for nothing with as little effort as possible. The forms give you examples and ideas of motion or self defense if you will. My feeling is you need a self-defense curriculum as well as forms. I've been around for a while and have seen people that just love to fight and don't practice the forms. Fighting is good don't get me wrong. Different forms of fighting are necessary to grow as a martial artist.

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by Marginal
What point is there to including this in every post you make?

Marginal,

I'm making a joking reference to the "Is the ITF a cult" thread, with that statement. A "cult" would be the wrong people to teach life threatening stuff to, eh? Such as advanced apps. in forms. A Joke! The WTF texts won't show the advanced apps. any more than the ITF texts. They are definitely there though. If anyone chooses to ignore that, then go for it. The ones that do study these things will continue. Once it is experienced, the practicioner will understand the truth. It is up to them whether or not they want to put in the work at that point.


The ITF draws on Shotokan teachings as much if not more than the WTF. Funakoshi acknowledged grappling in his version of kata. Choi studied UNDER Funakoshi. Funakoshi shared techniques with Kano (Judo) and vice versa. Judo has GRAPPLING KATA. Funakoshi mentions, in his autobiography, that his teachers on Okinawa would have him and his fellow students WRESTLE, after KATA practice, on a REGULAR BASIS. The curriculum was set up in a way to foster kata interpretation when dealing with grappling. It is not any stretch what I have been discussing with Fissure on this thread. If anyone feels uncomfortable about there being something more than they were taught in their forms, I am not forcing them to enquire. For anyone that does, I will give as clear an explanation as my typing finger can. I am not partisan.


Bagatha,
In reference to your "Kung Fu forms" remark, the Chinese Fukien province gave gave birth to the Kung Fu systems that are the MOTHER of your forms. The lessons Funakoshi received were in LARGE part FROM CHINA. Funakoshi TAUGHT Choi. Are you catching the connection here? You are practicing "Tang Soo Do" that was renamed TKD. "China Hand Way". Kara Te Do means "China Hand Way". This is another reason I reference "cult" like behavior. Not looking around you and believing only what you are told is "cult" like, no? Arnisador and some others helped me find clear text reference dealing with the exporting of Kung Fu to Japan AND Korea. It became Karate, TSD AND TKD. Is the ITF a cult? No! Some people just like to pretend. If you looked harder at your forms and I mean REALLY looked, YOU WOULD BE fluent enough to exchange with some of the CMA people. Your joke has more truth to it than you realize! Yours is a very good analogy, accident or not!


Fissure,
Anymore good chop, chop insites from your vantage point are appreciated. This is fun. Thanks! I will try to be more "succinct".

white belt

 

[jfarnsworth]

Good post.:asian:

 

[TkdWarrior]

hmm Mr. White Belt intresting post again...
i dunno if ITF is a cult or not(i m ITF guy) n i dont care about it, the only thing i care about is learning, the day my instructor or me hav his/our minds closed i'll stop learning till then "happy learning"

in reference to KF->Karate->TSD->TKD
wat i'll say that when i met Kungfu ppl(mostly on forums like dragonslist) i found out that they don't learn different than mine(their forms r different), i hav bad memory in remembering names of stance/forms etc but when i see them i can do most of them(not forms)
i hav always wondered why TKD Tuls r like this?i asked my teacher n he gave me some answers which i think doesn't answered my question at that time, later i realised wat he meant
i tried looking into forms, but was not advanced enough to understand what the hell is happening there... still i practiced forms(i m not fan of forms tho).
Now after sometime in TKD n learning more about Kungfu/Wusu/Internal arts i don't think looking for advance techniques matters much, because all this hav taught me to go beyond techniques/forms etc...do i think i hav gone beyond? i guess may be not but i m still working... does that give me a good excuses to not look into techniques in a form? No i guess, but sometimes i wonder wat was up in the founder's(funakoshi/choi/others) mind when he created forms, was he putting some hidden forms so that it took ages to Master An Art?
or he was looking for something which could work in Real fight?
or he just loved moving here n there kickin n punchin?
or was he thinking about figthing one oppnt or more?
Who Knows... at least i don't...
well i guess it provide some mind excercise to ur mind while u look into techniques in forms(No Offence to anyone)but i guess they r not so Advance as u say n a dedicated Practitioner wouldn't hav problems in figuring those out...
i dunno if all this makes me a Cult Member then probably i m...
-TkdWarrior-

 

[fissure]

I was going to answer something on the previous page but I'll do it now. Personally what's being lessened is the mentality of people. In this day and age "usually" people want something for nothing with as little effort as possible. The forms give you examples and ideas of motion or self defense if you will. My feeling is you need a self-defense curriculum as well as forms. I've been around for a while and have seen people that just love to fight and don't practice the forms. Fighting is good don't get me wrong. Different forms of fighting are necessary to grow as a martial artist.

All good points! these 2 interest me

The forms give you examples and ideas of motion or self defense if you will

Different forms of fighting are necessary to grow as a martial artist

I hope I didn't give the impression that all one had to do was practice forms endlessly in order to reach ones goals!
My intent was to say (much as you did) that the "blue print" for application are in an arts forms.These are then practiced individualy with various partners, along with purpose specific "sparring" and indeed sport sparring to some degree.