Can you learn TSD taking one class per week?

[Lynne]

Some schools have an option of one class a week. Students are required to test at the same time as those who are going twice a week.

Is it possible to learn Tang Soo Do taking one class a week?

Do you think one class a week is a bad idea?

I'm fairly new, but I don't believe it's possible to learn TSD in one class a week. I go twice a week and have some help at home from my daughter. I have had dozens of questions. I don't see how it's possible to learn TSD with one class (one hour) per week.

What do you think?

 

[Sapper6]

absolutely. of course, your rate of progression would understandably be slower than students that study more often.

take for example, a college student taking a night class once a week. regardless if it's an hour, two hour, etc., the knowledge is still being passed on. it's just matter of how well you are able to absorb and retain that knowledge from week to week without going more often.

cheers!

 

[Kacey]

Do I think it's ideal? No, I don't. Do I think it's possible? It depends on the person. Do I think that people who attend class 1 time/week should be required to test on the same schedule as those who attend class 2 times/week? No - and I find it unlikely (not impossible, but unlikely) that they would be ready, and I don't think that testing should be based on the time from the last testing or when the testing is scheduled; it should be based on whether or not the student(s) in question are ready. If that means some students don't test, that's the way it is. I've missed testing because I wasn't ready; many of my students have missed testing because they weren't ready. It happens - and not attending classes regularly is one of the primary reason, right along with injury.

 

[Lynne]

absolutely. of course, your rate of progression would understandably be slower than students that study more often.

take for example, a college student taking a night class once a week. regardless if it's an hour, two hour, etc., the knowledge is still being passed on. it's just matter of how well you are able to absorb and retain that knowledge from week to week without going more often.

cheers!

Good points. My focus isn't what it used to be thanks to female hormones, but it is getting better with martial arts.

 

[exile]

absolutely. of course, your rate of progression would understandably be slower than students that study more often.

take for example, a college student taking a night class once a week. regardless if it's an hour, two hour, etc., the knowledge is still being passed on. it's just matter of how well you are able to absorb and retain that knowledge from week to week without going more often.

cheers!

Good analogy, Sapper. The critical factor, I think, is how much work you do on your own. For example, a lot of internalizing a technique, once you understand it correctly, is repetition. So if you go to class for an hour a week and spend the equivalent of four more hours drilling yourself on what you cover in class—and other stuff that you might not work on in class but which is technically essential to supplement you classwork, stuff like balance exercises, strength training, and various drills of the sort that Loren Christensen presents in abundance in his two Solo Training books—you're going to be able to keep with someone who goes to class several times a week but skimps on the `homework'. If you get someone to take camcorder vids of you performing hyungs, and study them critically to see just what it is you're doing, you very well may find it possible to improve your understanding of the movements just by watching yourself do them in the vid and thinking about any discrepancy between what you feel you're doing and what you actually are doing. If you're learning applications—bunkai—you can practice on simple hyungs, trying to work out plausible SD interpretations, and then checking with your instructor after class, or during the break, to see if you're on target. That sort of thing.

I don't think you can learn any MA unless you work very hard at it; but it's also true that people only have a certain rate of intake, and it may be that you need a week to completely internalize what you've learned in one class—in which case, two completely different classes would be a waste. And isn't it usually true that the amount of completely new material in any one class is usually relatively small? The rest is kihon drills, line work, self-defense moves, target striking for power and accuracy, and so on... much of which you can also do on your own, once you have enough experience to be able to be reasonably certain about just what it is your instructor is doing. So I don't think it's at all a hopeless situation...

 

[Tez3]

Only the children in our club do TSD and many of them only come once a week for an hour. I have an adult student, Danny, he does MMA but is my TSD student,I teach him whenever we have time. The children and Danny grade when they ae ready there is no time frame. Not ideal but workable. It means at MMA shows you can see Danny and I in odd moments going over stuff, we only get interest btw no one scoffs. Many say kata/patterns/hyungs etc aren't for them but as most MMA fighters over here come from a TMA background it's something they've all done at some time.

 

[Lynne]

Do I think it's ideal? No, I don't. Do I think it's possible? It depends on the person. Do I think that people who attend class 1 time/week should be required to test on the same schedule as those who attend class 2 times/week? No - and I find it unlikely (not impossible, but unlikely) that they would be ready, and I don't think that testing should be based on the time from the last testing or when the testing is scheduled; it should be based on whether or not the student(s) in question are ready. If that means some students don't test, that's the way it is. I've missed testing because I wasn't ready; many of my students have missed testing because they weren't ready. It happens - and not attending classes regularly is one of the primary reason, right along with injury.

I know that white and yellow belts are required to test after two months of training (two months each belt). However, one can say, "I'm not ready." As soon as I passed my yellow belt, they scheduled me for my orange belt test. I know that white and yellow belts can reschedule their tests. If I'm not ready, I will not test. What's a month? (I am glad to say that I believe yellow belt material is easier than white belt!)

Higher belts may be able to reschedule but I'm not sure. I'm fairly certain that orange belts and up must attend their spotlights and midterms regardless. If one fails a spotlight or midterm, they retest the following month, which delays the actual test for the next gup by a month each tme they fail.

I notice, Kacey, that you do not test your students until you know they are ready. Our school practices differently. We have a lot of kids fail - lots of tears. We also have adults who fail -a few tears there, too. Often, people fail because they can't break the required boards. Sometimes, they do not know their wrist grips of sparring combinations (frequently happens).

I can't say what is going on with the kids because I don't know.

In the adults' case, I wouldn't put the blame on the instructors. We are to take responsibility for our learning and ask if we do not understand a technique. Everything we need to know is laid out in a handout. We have been told over and over to ask questions, grab someone after class. But I tell you, I have seen so many adults panicking before a test because they do not know their wrist grips or their sparring hand combinations. Really, they are frantic with fear. I told my daughter I don't want to be in that position. I don't think there is any excuse for that. Maybe I'll change my mind at green belt and above. Maybe there is something I'm not seeing.

You won't like this but here goes (maybe I should post it under Horror Stories). I was in attendance at a test because my daughter was testing. They had to do 60 squat thrusts. Sixty! A red belt young lady was testing for her next gup under red belt. After squat thrusts, she had to break a board with a kick (it was some kind of spinning back kick). Poor thing. Her hips were so trashed from the squat thrusts that she could not articulate her legs and hips to break the board. When we got to the locker room, she was so upset. She had broken boards before with that kick but couldn't during the test. So, she didn't pass. That was just one of those weird things that happen during testing, not the norm of course. All I can say is, I'm glad I didn't have to do 60 (or even 20) squat thrusts during my testing - my legs might have buckled during a form and it would have looked like I didn't know what I was doing. Then again, I would think the instructors know what I can do..

It's interesting to learn about everyone's teaching, testing techniques, etc.

 

[Lynne]

Good analogy, Sapper. The critical factor, I think, is how much work you do on your own. For example, a lot of internalizing a technique, once you understand it correctly, is repetition. So if you go to class for an hour a week and spend the equivalent of four more hours drilling yourself on what you cover in class—and other stuff that you might not work on in class but which technically essential to supplement you classwork, stuff like balance exercises, strength training, and various drills of the sort that Loren Christensen presents in abundance in his two Solo Training books—you're going to be able to keep with someone who goes to class several times a week but skimps on the `homework'. If you get someone to take camcorder vids of you performing hyungs, and study them critically to see just what it is you're doing, you very well may find it possible to improve your understanding of the movements just by watching yourself do them in the vid and thinking about any discrepancy between what you feel you're doing and what you actually are doing. If you're learning applications—bunkai—you can practice on simple hyungs, trying to work out plausible SD interpretations, and then checking with your instructor after class, or during the break, to see if you're on target. That sort of thing.

I don't think you can learn any MA unless you work very hard at it; but it's also true that people only have a certain rate of intake, and it may be that you need a week to completely internalize what you've learned in one class—in which case, two completely different classes would be a waste. And isn't it usually true that the amount of completely new material in any one class is usually relatively small? The rest of is kihon drills, line work, self-defense moves, target striking and so on... much of which you can also do on your own, once you have enough experience to be able to be reasonably certain about just what it is your instructor is doing. So I don't think it's at all a hopeless situation...

Internalizing has helped me more than anything. My daughter is very good at explaining mechanics. Once I understand preparation or twisting for power and so on, it helps so much. I do a lot of visualization. I also practice wrist grips and one-step sparring "in the air."

As a white belt, I was absolutely overwhelmed in class with new material. I was introduced to a form, wrist grips, punching, and edan ahp chagi all in the first class. The form included low blocks, 270 degree turns, and punches. The punches were not easy because I didn't know what a reverse punch was, etc. Another class, I was introduced into combinations without them being broken down. It was higher belt material - stepping outside/inside blocks with aiming, then a reverse punch. Then I had Il Soo Sik Deh Ryun on top of that. I thought my head would explode a few times. As a yellow belt, the material seems much easier because I know various blocks, punches, kicks, and combinations. I suspect it will get harder during the next belt or two.

Having the hyungs camcorded is a good idea.

 

[Lynne]

Only the children in our club do TSD and many of them only come once a week for an hour. I have an adult student, Danny, he does MMA but is my TSD student,I teach him whenever we have time. The children and Danny grade when they ae ready there is no time frame. Not ideal but workable. It means at MMA shows you can see Danny and I in odd moments going over stuff, we only get interest btw no one scoffs. Many say kata/patterns/hyungs etc aren't for them but as most MMA fighters over here come from a TMA background it's something they've all done at some time.

A lot of people seem to be averse to hyung. Our best sparring people are the ones who are best at hyung. Hyungs teach balance and control, are so important. I'm still trying to square my shoulders and punch like I'm in an actual battle. I try to be very sharp on my defensive/offensive stepping and my preparation. It is not easy.

 

[Kacey]

I notice, Kacey, that you do not test your students until you know they are ready. Our school practices differently. We have a lot of kids fail - lots of tears. We also have adults who fail -a few tears there, too. Often, people fail because they can't break the required boards. Sometimes, they do not know their wrist grips of sparring combinations (frequently happens).

This is, I think, a difference in philosophy - my students test when I tell them to, and if they're not ready when a testing is scheduled, they don't test. That doesn't mean they can't fail - and students have. The difference is, my students can pass or they won't test - but they're not guaranteed, and they have to work for it.

In the adults' case, I wouldn't put the blame on the instructors. We are to take responsibility for our learning and ask if we do not understand a technique. Everything we need to know is laid out in a handout. We have been told over and over to ask questions, grab someone after class. But I tell you, I have seen so many adults panicking before a test because they do not know their wrist grips or their sparring hand combinations. Really, they are frantic with fear. I told my daughter I don't want to be in that position. I don't think there is any excuse for that. Maybe I'll change my mind at green belt and above. Maybe there is something I'm not seeing.

My students have a book that lays out all of their requirements from white belt to black belt - they know exactly what they may be asked to do at testing. That's not the issue. I am the instructor - it is my responsibility to tell them what is and is not at the level it needs to be at for them to succeed at testing, and to provide feedback on what they need to improve. They still have the responsibility to ask question, ask for extra help, practice outside of class, and so on. Students who don't practice outside of class won't be ready to test, which, it sounds, is the same as in your class. For the rest, as I said, it's a difference in philosophy - as their instructor, I am responsible for providing instruction in everything they need to know at each rank, and letting them know if their skill level is sufficient; my students let me know they're ready to test by their performance, but the decision of who tests when is up to me.

You won't like this but here goes (maybe I should post it under Horror Stories). I was in attendance at a test because my daughter was testing. They had to do 60 squat thrusts. Sixty! A red belt young lady was testing for her next gup under red belt. After squat thrusts, she had to break a board with a kick (it was some kind of spinning back kick). Poor thing. Her hips were so trashed from the squat thrusts that she could not articulate her legs and hips to break the board. When we got to the locker room, she was so upset. She had broken boards before with that kick but couldn't during the test. So, she didn't pass. That was just one of those weird things that happen during testing, not the norm of course. All I can say is, I'm glad I didn't have to do 60 (or even 20) squat thrusts during my testing - my legs might have buckled during a form and it would have looked like I didn't know what I was doing. Then again, I would think the instructors know what I can do..

You're right - I don't like it. First, I don't understand what 60 squat thrusts have to do with MA, except to prove perseverance, and second, I disagree with failing someone for missing a break after doing that type of exercise. Students miss breaks for all sorts of reasons, including nerves and injuries that occurred during class - and on one memorable occasion, an unbreakable board, which, we found out later, was from the center of the tree - the grain looked like a target; my students, should they miss a break (rare) have 2 weeks to demonstrate the break to me, or they fail. Breaks are the only thing students are allowed to make up.

It's interesting to learn about everyone's teaching, testing techniques, etc.

Yes, it is.

 

[Lynne]

I see what you mean by it's your responsibility to assess whether a student is ready. I agree with that! I guess the reason for spotlights and midterms is to assess a student's readiness? We have large enrollment and Master R cannot be everywhere. He also has two schools.

It is definitely true, in our school, that if one doesn't practice outside of class one cannot learn as they should. I think this may be why kids fail often - parents who don't take MA have no idea that practice is needed. Little ones might need a bit of a push to "practice."

We've had some rotten boards, too. Master R gives people many a chance to break a board and will often grab another board and voila!

 

[Tez3]

We don't break boards, we don't believe children should do it and for any adults we have it's pointless as they get to go full contact when fighting MMA! Boards as Bruce said don't fight back!
I am getting the feeling the stress especially on the children is high? Our children rarely fail gradings, they can do but they are well prepared beforehand, they know what they have to do! We test on self defence techniques but not wrist grips as such, we will do one and three step sparring but these aren't pre-set combinations. The choice of the last move is entirely up to the student.To be honest we tend to treat the grading more as a graduation onto the next belt, if the students have been well taught they will know how to cope with nerves and any pressure. The grading atmosphere is more formal than our classes, the children are quiet and concentrate well, it's a chance as much as anything to 'show off' thier techniques, sparring and kata. Passing isn't automatic as they know so they do try hard.

 

[Lynne]

We don't break boards, we don't believe children should do it and for any adults we have it's pointless as they get to go full contact when fighting MMA! Boards as Bruce said don't fight back!
I am getting the feeling the stress especially on the children is high? Our children rarely fail gradings, they can do but they are well prepared beforehand, they know what they have to do! We test on self defence techniques but not wrist grips as such, we will do one and three step sparring but these aren't pre-set combinations. The choice of the last move is entirely up to the student.To be honest we tend to treat the grading more as a graduation onto the next belt, if the students have been well taught they will know how to cope with nerves and any pressure. The grading atmosphere is more formal than our classes, the children are quiet and concentrate well, it's a chance as much as anything to 'show off' thier techniques, sparring and kata. Passing isn't automatic as they know so they do try hard.

The children don't do wrist grips until age 16 I believe. They do the sparring combinations though. I can't say how stressed the kids are or aren't. They certainly are quiet and bug-eyed during the testing though. So, I think it's very important to them to pass. A few that I know personally are very nervous about testing. They don't have the attitude that it's a chance to show what you know. They're fearful of failing.

As far as the boards go, our demo team does cool things like lighting them on fire and breaking them - for show, to interest people in martial arts. Then, we have people who compete in board-breaking. It can get gnarly trying to break a lot of boards with one strike. I think it's addictive by the way.

 

[Tez3]

The children don't do wrist grips until age 16 I believe. They do the sparring combinations though. I can't say how stressed the kids are or aren't. They certainly are quiet and bug-eyed during the testing though. So, I think it's very important to them to pass. A few that I know personally are very nervous about testing. They don't have the attitude that it's a chance to show what you know. They're fearful of failing.

As far as the boards go, our demo team does cool things like lighting them on fire and breaking them - for show, to interest people in martial arts. Then, we have people who compete in board-breaking. It can get gnarly trying to break a lot of boards with one strike. I think it's addictive by the way.

I'm not sure of the being scared of failing but we are a fighting club and that to us is the real test, can you fight? ( can you defend yurself when necessary?) Even our Little Dragons class can fight lol!
I can break boards and I've broken roof tiles but it doesn't really compete with getting into a ring/cage and fighting! We sound very aggressive but aren't really.... honest!

 

[Lynne]

I'm not sure of the being scared of failing but we are a fighting club and that to us is the real test, can you fight? ( can you defend yurself when necessary?) Even our Little Dragons class can fight lol!
I can break boards and I've broken roof tiles but it doesn't really compete with getting into a ring/cage and fighting! We sound very aggressive but aren't really.... honest!

I understand what you're saying!

I just ordered my sparring equipment and look forward to a sparring clinic in August. I can't spar in class until I'm an orange belt though. Hope I pass my test at the end of August.

 

[exile]

Lynne, just a couple of random follow-up thoughts re some of the previous posts...

(i) hyungs: the primary purpose of forms was originally to encode combat scenarios, on the assumption that you would know that what we would now (following Itosu) the `blocking' motion you were looking at wasn't in fact a block but an upper body (and in some specific bunkai, a lower body, aka groin) strike while the attacker is held immobilized by your retracting (supposedly `chambering) hand. A good deal of the karate training that antecedes TSD (and the KMAs generally) involved learning how to decipher these innocent-looking forms into the generally nasty and dangerous SD techs they conceal (you think that's a simple punch and retraction? What if it's actual a neck-breaking head-twist, which uses exactly the same general movements? And so on...) My own view is, hyungs don't primarily teach balance or rhythm or flow or anything like that; they weren't designed for that purpose. Their purpose was specifically to teach damaging combinations of combat techniques that will force a noncompliant attacker out of the fight, and almost always down on the ground. Some of the thread involving Master Jay Penfil and Upnorthkyosa are very, very informative in this respect.

(ii) breaking: the point of breaking, the true benefit I think, is that it's a way to quantify your ability to deliver concentrated force (i.e., force over a small surface area) to a target. You aren't fighting the board, which is why Bruce Lee's comment about boards not fighting back seems so strange and beside the point. You're using the board to train your ability to direct a limb with sufficient accuracy and velocity to a small enough target area that you disrupt its structure to the point where it breaks. Any attack to someone's throat that corresponds to only a one board break will do less damage to their larynx than a strike that can break three boards without dividers. As you train, and your dividerless stack gets bigger, you are learning to administer more force per strike, and are also getting a quantitative measure of your ability to deliver that force so that you can monitor your performance as you train and improve. It is exactly the same idea as weight training: you train free weights to improve strength; and also, the weight you can lift over so many reps in unit time gives you a very precise idea of how strong you are. The way I've always thought of it is, boards are to strikes as free weights are to strength: they both measure your level of performance, and enable you to increase that performance....

 

[Lynne]

Lynne, just a couple of random follow-up thoughts re some of the previous posts...

(i) hyungs: the primary purpose of forms was originally to encode combat scenarios, on the assumption that you would know that what we would now (following Itosu) the `blocking' motion you were looking at wasn't in fact a block but an upper body (and in some specific bunkai, a lower body, aka groin) strike while the attacker is held immobilized by your retracting (supposedly `chambering) hand. A good deal of the karate training that antecedes TSD (and the KMAs generally) involved learning how to decipher these innocent-looking forms into the generally nasty and dangerous SD techs they conceal (you think that's a simple punch and retraction? What if it's actual a neck-breaking head-twist, which uses exactly the same general movements? And so on...) My own view is, hyungs don't primarily teach balance or rhythm or flow or anything like that; they weren't designed for that purpose. Their purpose was specifically to teach damaging combinations of combat techniques that will force a noncompliant attacker out of the fight, and almost always down on the ground. Some of the thread involving Master Jay Penfil and Upnorthkyosa are very, very informative in this respect.

(ii) breaking: the point of breaking, the true benefit I think, is that it's a way to quantify your ability to deliver concentrated force (i.e., force over a small surface area) to a target. You aren't fighting the board, which is why Bruce Lee's comment about boards not fighting back seems so strange and beside the point. You're using the board to train your ability to direct a limb with sufficient accuracy and velocity to a small enough target area that you disrupt its structure to the point where it breaks. Any attack to someone's throat that corresponds to only a one board break will do less damage to their larynx than a strike that can break three boards without dividers. As you train, and your dividerless stack gets bigger, you are learning to administer more force per strike, and are also getting a quantitative measure of your ability to deliver that force so that you can monitor your performance as you train and improve. It is exactly the same idea as weight training: you train free weights to improve strength; and also, the weight you can lift over so many reps in unit time gives you a very precise idea of how strong you are. The way I've always thought of it is, boards are to strikes as free weights are to strength: they both measure your level of performance, and enable you to increase that performance....

Thank you, Exile, for the excellent information. My brain is like a sponge (sometimes with holes) and I'm soaking in as much as I can.

I will check out the threads concerning Master Penfil and Upnorthkyosa.

I'm glad you showed the correlation between board-breaking and delivering an attack (via velocity and force). I hadn't thought of board-breaking as a martial arts training technique in itself *blushes*

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I echo what everyone's said, and to that I'll add this.

As for myself, I don't like missing classes, and I go to 4 a week: Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and twice in a row Saturday. I'd go more often if I had a ride (the main C.S. Kim in Monroeville has Tuesday-night black belt classes which, the few times I've gone, nearly killed me...a good feeling). I may sound a bit masochistic (and I am), but here's what's behind that: If I go more than a day or two without class, I get all stiff and inflexible. I have to keep it up in order to maintain myself. I've skipped a week or two before, due to holidays or vacations, and the first class back is always horrible. That's part what keeps me going.

Do I think it's possible to keep yourself going with one class a week? Maybe. Do I think it's possible to "learn" TSD with one class a week? Also maybe, but only if you're the greatest student ever, or if you practice outside of class.

On that sadistic testing procedure, Lynne, let me relate a few stories from tests past for me:

1- Gup tests aren't always at your home school. One time, when I tested at the Natrona Heights C.S. Kim for some green belt level, one of the sa bom nim testing us made us do kick sequences we'd never even done (three round kicks with the same leg, three different heights, among others), or would be expected to do. I managed, somehow.

2- For one test, I had to spar my instructor (then only kyo sa nim). That was fun.

3- Black belt pre-tests, dan-level tests, and recerts all have endurance parts. The testers are rotated through three rooms, one of which is endurance and knowledge. Which one you do first depends on where you are in line. It's always my luck to do endurance first, it seems.

Am I saying 60 squats at gup level before breaking was either fair or wise? No. But you can either complain about it or learn to expect it.

 

[Tez3]

We sound even more blood thirsty than ever after Exiles excellent post on breaking! We know our punches work when we knock someone out (or get knocked out lol) but I understand that isn't everyones cup of tea. However what it does do is prepare us for what people love to call streetfights or preferably self defence. I've seen people who spend a lot of time 'air' punching or pulling their punches when sparring be unable to respond with enough force when put into a full contact situation.The 'muscle memory' they have built up doesn't allow them to punch to their full capabilities.
Punching hard isn't as good however as punching clever, one of our clubs 'specialities' is the liver punch/kick/knee. A strike to the liver doesn't need to be forceful but oh my it does drop your opponent quickly!

For some people once a week is better than nothing, my student works nights Sunday to Wednesday but as he has young children he often does overtime for the extra money. He's very keen, not the 'best student in the world' and does try to practice out of class. Would JT suggest I don't teach him because he can only manage one night a week?

 

[Lynne]

I echo what everyone's said, and to that I'll add this.

As for myself, I don't like missing classes, and I go to 4 a week: Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and twice in a row Saturday. I'd go more often if I had a ride (the main C.S. Kim in Monroeville has Tuesday-night black belt classes which, the few times I've gone, nearly killed me...a good feeling). I may sound a bit masochistic (and I am), but here's what's behind that: If I go more than a day or two without class, I get all stiff and inflexible. I have to keep it up in order to maintain myself. I've skipped a week or two before, due to holidays or vacations, and the first class back is always horrible. That's part what keeps me going.

Do I think it's possible to keep yourself going with one class a week? Maybe. Do I think it's possible to "learn" TSD with one class a week? Also maybe, but only if you're the greatest student ever, or if you practice outside of class.

On that sadistic testing procedure, Lynne, let me relate a few stories from tests past for me:

1- Gup tests aren't always at your home school. One time, when I tested at the Natrona Heights C.S. Kim for some green belt level, one of the sa bom nim testing us made us do kick sequences we'd never even done (three round kicks with the same leg, three different heights, among others), or would be expected to do. I managed, somehow.

2- For one test, I had to spar my instructor (then only kyo sa nim). That was fun.

3- Black belt pre-tests, dan-level tests, and recerts all have endurance parts. The testers are rotated through three rooms, one of which is endurance and knowledge. Which one you do first depends on where you are in line. It's always my luck to do endurance first, it seems.

Am I saying 60 squats at gup level before breaking was either fair or wise? No. But you can either complain about it or learn to expect it.

1 - Combinations - ones that you've never done? Ick.
2 - Well, at least your instructor knows your capabilities.
3 - I can't even begin to imagine how tough the pretesting/testing for Dan level tests is.

You were talking about flexibility, JT. I am so stiff all the time it seems. I have Sang Kim's book on flexibility - maybe it's time I started using it.

I have heard several people who missed a week and when they come back they say their legs feel like lead and that first class just kills.

I like good workouts, too. I felt sorry for someone trying out the other night. The white and yellow belts did 600 wall kicks. I bet that woman trying out couldn't walk for four days. I thought 600 were bad but the orange, green and red belts had to do over a 1,000. We have pretty tought workouts. I haven't gotten sick yet but other people have.

I haven't had to do 60 squat thrusts yet. I think we did 40 in one class. Also, one of the yellow belts was leaning against the wall instead of at attention and the whole class had to do 60 squat thrusts (glad to say that was before I began training). I fully expect 60 squat thrusts during a test - anything we might do in class - 200 pushups, 150 leg raises, whatever.