Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[PhotonGuy]

I have always taught at the YMCA. I do not charge. I have never charged. Not one penny. Ever. And I never will. I am a volunteer.

So you don't charge but does the YMCA charge for the lessons?

Is there any part of that that still defies your understanding?

That was rude.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

A point I've been trying to make on this forum for years.

Primarily to people who have not been on the forum for years.

 

[Gyakuto]

Maybe there just isn't, or since you say until fairly recently, wasn't much of a demand for the martial arts in the UK, not like in the USA. I don't know much about the popularity of the martial arts in the UK although I do know a bit about Vernon Bell who apparently introduced much of the martial arts to the UK, but if there is not a high demand for something it will be hard to make a living teaching or providing it and so you might have to have some other job in addition to it to make a good living.

There’s probably as much demand for MA teaching in the U.K. as in the USA, but there‘s just less of a drive to monetise everything in the UK. I think we simply have different economic philosophies in ol’ Blighty, although I acknowledge, that is changing.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Primarily to people who have not been on the forum for years.

Not just them but to the martial arts community in general, and by that I mean everybody that trains in and/or teaches the martial arts. It's one thing to not be allowed to test or promote which makes sense and I would not want to be promoted if Im truly not ready in terms of skill. The problem is, when you can't ask about why you're not testing or promoting and to ask what you need to fix, what you need to work on. What I don't get is why asking about such stuff might be frowned upon.

 

[Gyakuto]

The problem is, when you can't ask about why you're not testing or promoting and to ask what you need to fix, what you need to work on. What I don't get is why asking about such stuff might be frowned upon.

Yes, I agree. It’s very ‘controlling’, holding onto a bit of power over a student. Some are just like that, I suppose. I choose to quietly walk away from such people.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Isn't the concept of the McDojo based on creating maximum profit for the business? Hence the name relating to the American fast-food chain. Good quality instructors are out there if you know where to look. Here in the UK we have plenty of martial artists who have a passion for their practice. There are not too many commercial schools as far as I am aware though.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Isn't the concept of the McDojo is based on creating maximum profit for the business? Hence the name relating to the American fast-food chain. Good quality instructors are out there if you know where to look. Here in the UK we have plenty of martial artists who have a passion for their practice. There are not too many commercial schools as far as I am aware though.

I always thought it had more to do with the legitimacy and quality of the product.

If I'm getting a legit product at a fair price, then what's on the ledger books is not my concern.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I always thought it had more to do with the legitimacy and quality of the product.

If I'm getting a legit product at a fair price, then what's on the ledger books is not my concern.

McDonalds serves up junk-food with little nutritional value - I guess a McDojo would offer a similar service to their customers

 

[Hot Lunch]

McDonalds serves up junk-food with little nutritional value - I guess a McDojo would offer a similar service to their customers

Yeah, but that's a "tastes good" versus "good for you" situation that doesn't translate well to martial arts.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Yeah, but that's a "tastes good" versus "good for you" situation that doesn't translate well to martial arts.

McDojo: All You Need To Know

Due to the spread of martial arts, a lot of McDojo have appeared all over the world. But what exactly are they and how can we spot them?

karatemartialart.net

 

[Gyakuto]

Yeah, but that's a "tastes good" versus "good for you" situation that doesn't translate well to martial arts.

‘Tastes good‘ is entirely subjective.

A McDojo can offer a subjectively ‘tasty’ martial art with juicy fast promotions, accelerated with extra fees, flashy keikogi progressively covered in achievement patches and the students will love it because they never been exposed to anything better in terms of ‘taste’ and ‘nutritional value’.

 

[Hot Lunch]

‘Tastes good‘ is entirely subjective.

A McDojo can offer a subjectively ‘tasty’ martial art with juicy fast promotions, accelerated with extra fees, flashy keikogi progressively covered in achievement patches and the students will love it because they never been exposed to anything better in terms of ‘taste’ and ‘nutritional value’.

What it all comes down is what the customer is looking for. If you're looking for something healthy nutritious, you don't go to McDonald's. If you go to McDonald's, you're looking for something that's cheap, tastes good, and will fill you up. And if you go to McDonald's, that's exactly what you're going to get; nothing more, nothing less.

All this talk in this thread so far about McDonald's being unhealthy assumes that the customer doesn't know any better and is getting ripped off.

 

[Flying Crane]

What it all comes down is what the customer is looking for. If you're looking for something healthy nutritious, you don't go to McDonald's. If you go to McDonald's, you're looking for something that's cheap, tastes good, and will fill you up. And if you go to McDonald's, that's exactly what you're going to get; nothing more, nothing less.

All this talk in this thread so far about McDonald's being unhealthy assumes that the customer doesn't know any better and is getting ripped off.

There are a lot of schools in the US that are teaching martial arts at a low level of quality. I’m not going to call them “McDojo” because I do not believe that term can be adequately defined to everyone’s satisfaction. But low quality is, in my opinion, much more common than high quality.

In the end, if the students at those schools are happy with what they get, it isn’t for me to force my way in and tell them otherwise or try to shut the school down. However, if someone asks for my opinion about a place, or asks me to evaluate a place because they are thinking of enrolling their kid there, I will give my honest assessment.

It is my opinion that the general public mostly does not know better, and is getting ripped off. This is particularly true when people are beginners and do not know enough to understand the difference between high and low quality training and instruction. They choose a school because it is nearby and easy to get to, not because they evaluated the quality.

If someone is raised on Fruit Loops and Frosted Flakes and Wonder Bread and McDonalds, and that is all they have experienced in terms of food, then they simply do not know any better. They are happy with what they have because they do not know that other options exist.

 

[Gyakuto]

What it all comes down is what the customer is looking for. If you're looking for something healthy nutritious, you don't go to McDonald's. If you go to McDonald's, you're looking for something that's cheap, tastes good, and will fill you up.

To stretch the analogy to a point approaching the elastic limit, I’d suggest that few people actually search out something healthy and nutritious. Everyone looks for convenience and tastiness. Perhaps it’s up to the food retailer to be conscientious and caring for their customer‘s long term health by providing healthy, nutritious food who’s taste they come to realise is good and maybe even ’refined’. Similarly, perhaps a martial arts purveyor has the duty to provide real, authentic, deep teaching….whatever those terms mean.

And if you go to McDonald's, that's exactly what you're going to get; nothing more, nothing less.

They are providing food that a 2-3 year old would covet and desire…an individual motivated by their ‘id’ (to use an outmoded concept). By locating themselves in every convenient place and at prices that only a huge corporation can elicit, they push out purveyors of healthier options. Similarly, McDojo, flood the market with ‘easy achievement‘, inauthentic martial arts, whatever that means, and sadly most people will not realise what they’re getting is of poor quality.

All this talk in this thread so far about McDonald's being unhealthy assumes that the customer doesn't know any better and is getting ripped off.

I don’t think most people do know which is better which is why the U.K. and the USA have the most unhealthy, obese populations in the world. Similarly, we have a huge proliferation of McDojo, the U.K. catching up with the USA.

Sorry to stretch the analogy so much. I think i’ve exceeded it’s elastic limits and Young is spinning in his grave!

 

[Dirty Dog]

So you don't charge but does the YMCA charge for the lessons?

The YMCA has their membership fees, sure.

That was rude.

You're confused, I clarify and ask if you're still confused, and that's rude?

Yammering on, saying the same thing 1,874,635 times could be considered rude too, I guess.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The part that confuses me is that I've never known of any place where I could just get lessons for free, and I've visited many different dojos and training gyms.

I've known more kung fu schools that to this than Japanese or Korean martial arts. Jow Ga schools do this based on the individual who wants to train but cannot train. This is often done for Yong adults and teens. Most kung fu schools value the passion that students have. We don't have belts to chase and ad a result you get a high concentration of people who have some sort of self motivation or passion driving. We have a tendency to want to get to the next form. Like karate students and tkd students want to get to the next belt.

 

[drop bear]

I always thought it had more to do with the legitimacy and quality of the product.

If I'm getting a legit product at a fair price, then what's on the ledger books is not my concern.

It can get more complicated than that.

Are Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Affiliations Just a Ponzi Scheme?

The sheer number of the number of BJJ gym affiliations there are is truly incredible. How does a consumer even choose? The list is massive – the very uncompleted list: 10th planet Jiu Jitsu, Carlson-gracie, Gracie-Barra, Alliance, Atos, Renzo Gracie and I’m sure there are half a dozen affiliates...

www.bjjee.com

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I don’t think most people do know which is better which is why the U.K. and the USA have the most unhealthy, obese populations in the world. Similarly, we have a huge proliferation of McDojo, the U.K. catching up with the USA.

McDonalds is a junk-food business designed to make the maximum profit for the minimum effort. A great number of karate and Kung Fu schools have followed this model instead of sticking to their traditional origins - the same has happened with meditation and Yoga practices too.

11 signs your gym is a McDojo – BudoDragon

budodragon.com

An extract from the linked website:

McDojo is a term used to describe martial arts gyms and dojos that prioritize money over principles and have a poor quality of teaching, students and general culture as a result. The term is a play on words of ‘McDonalds’, meaning that like McDonalds, a McDojo is common and isn’t a good experience for its customers. A similar term you may have heard is ‘bullshido’. This is again a play on words for bushido which translates to ‘code of honor’ for the samurai. Similarly, the term bullshido doesn’t mean much explaining in regards to its play on words title.

 

[Steve]

To stretch the analogy to a point approaching the elastic limit, I’d suggest that few people actually search out something healthy and nutritious. Everyone looks for convenience and tastiness. Perhaps it’s up to the food retailer to be conscientious and caring for their customer‘s long term health by providing healthy, nutritious food who’s taste they come to realise is good and maybe even ’refined’. Similarly, perhaps a martial arts purveyor has the duty to provide real, authentic, deep teaching….whatever those terms mean.


They are providing food that a 2-3 year old would covet and desire…an individual motivated by their ‘id’ (to use an outmoded concept). By locating themselves in every convenient place and at prices that only a huge corporation can elicit, they push out purveyors of healthier options. Similarly, McDojo, flood the market with ‘easy achievement‘, inauthentic martial arts, whatever that means, and sadly most people will not realise what they’re getting is of poor quality.

I don’t think most people do know which is better which is why the U.K. and the USA have the most unhealthy, obese populations in the world. Similarly, we have a huge proliferation of McDojo, the U.K. catching up with the USA.

Sorry to stretch the analogy so much. I think i’ve exceeded it’s elastic limits and Young is spinning in his grave!

Stretching analogies is fun, and timely given the other discussion going on about being bound by tradition. Reminds me of this video.

If martial arts is like nutrition, then tradition can often be the source of a lot of persistent myths. Searing in steak locks in the juices. Don't eat eggs. And on and on.

The thing is, getting back to that video, most martial artists are like a person who's never had their bloodwork done... and never intends to. I can eat whatever I want, and as long as I never have my cholesterol checked, as far as I know, it's great. Until, that is, I have a heart attack, at which point I will be paying dearly for my denial.

As always, there are different priorities. Effective and authentic, however, are not intrinsically linked. You can have both... or neither... or one or the other. I think some posters around here prioritize authenticity and are probably very successful. But they presume efficacy, and I think that's like avoiding getting your cholesterol checked regularly.

 

[Steve]

McDonalds is a junk-food business designed to make the maximum profit for the minimum effort. A great number of karate and Kung Fu schools have followed this model instead of sticking to their traditional origins - the same has happened with meditation and Yoga practices too.

11 signs your gym is a McDojo – BudoDragon

budodragon.com

An extract from the linked website:

McDojo is a term used to describe martial arts gyms and dojos that prioritize money over principles and have a poor quality of teaching, students and general culture as a result. The term is a play on words of ‘McDonalds’, meaning that like McDonalds, a McDojo is common and isn’t a good experience for its customers. A similar term you may have heard is ‘bullshido’. This is again a play on words for bushido which translates to ‘code of honor’ for the samurai. Similarly, the term bullshido doesn’t mean much explaining in regards to its play on words title.

McDonald's restaurants have no incentive to run them poorly. A well run business makes more money.