Breaking a martial art contract

[Mr Mojo Lane]

Has anyone done this? This place that I go to is expensive and I have missed a lot of classes lately bc I was sick. Plus, I am going to go back to school in month, so I will miss even more time.

 

[jks9199]

Read the contract carefully. You may have an escape clause for the move -- but you may not. If you are going to break the contract, get legal guidance because it can seriously impact your credit history if they take you to collections.

 

[Grenadier]

Each contract is different, but for the most part, the school will allow you to buy out the rest of your contract at a fraction of the cost.

Also, read the contract carefully. Some also allow for getting out entirely, if you move away by a certain distance. Since you're going back to school, that should qualify, if such a clause is in the contract.

If the contract doesn't allow for such options, then ask the owner of the school if you can defer / suspend the contract, so you can complete it at a later time.

 

[GaryR]

Has anyone done this? This place that I go to is expensive and I have missed a lot of classes lately bc I was sick. Plus, I am going to go back to school in month, so I will miss even more time.

I got an A in contracts in Law School, but it's been a few years-- off the top of my head you may be able to vitiate the contract based on the doctrine of "impracticability", because due to your illness there was an issue with performance. This is a very fact-intensive doctriner, and is very subjective.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impracticability.

Of course check the details of the contract, and also check for a "NOM" clause, "no oral modification", so if a statement was made re payments for non-attendance it could act to modify the written contract.

best,

G

 

[Mauthos]

Must say that I am glad that the majority of marital arts classes in the UK do not use a contact based system.

 

[SuperFLY]

Must say that I am glad that the majority of marital arts classes in the UK do not use a contact based system.

was just thinking the same

 

[Balrog]

IMNSHO, a well-written contract should have an escape clause built in from the start. Ours are written so that if there is illness or injury where the student can't train, the contract is automatically voided. It's also voided if they move more than 25 miles from the school. If they just want to quit, I hit them with a penalty of four months dues and the contract is voided.

I'm not in business to sue people in small claims court. If they want to learn Taekwondo and are capable of being in class, they will make it to class. If they don't want to be in class, I don't want them in class.

 

[jezr74]

IMNSHO, a well-written contract should have an escape clause built in from the start. Ours are written so that if there is illness or injury where the student can't train, the contract is automatically voided. It's also voided if they move more than 25 miles from the school. If they just want to quit, I hit them with a penalty of four months dues and the contract is voided.

I'm not in business to sue people in small claims court. If they want to learn Taekwondo and are capable of being in class, they will make it to class. If they don't want to be in class, I don't want them in class.

How would you justify a club needing contract terms beyond a month at a time say?

I personally keep clear of any MA school that uses contracts. It instantly makes me weary of the club.

 

[GaryR]

How would you justify a club needing contract terms beyond a month at a time say?

I personally keep clear of any MA school that uses contracts. It instantly makes me weary of the club.

I generally dislike them as well as a student. However I currently offer a discounted rate if they want to sign one tiered for 6-9-12 months. I also give the student a month to back out if they dislike the class--nobody ever has.

How can you justify it?? Very simply--rent and time investment in the student. If a teacher has rent to pay it is much better to have a project-able cash flow. Contracts do this, and also normally prevent the student from just dropping out based on frustration or laziness. Many students think they will be Bruce-Lee in a week, and get discouraged when they actually have to work. Also as a teacher, if I don't know someone is going to hang around, I don't like to put a lot of energy into getting them up to snuff. I'd rather focus on serious people only, not vagabonds teacher wandering.

G

 

[jezr74]

I generally dislike them as well as a student. However I currently offer a discounted rate if they want to sign one tiered for 6-9-12 months. I also give the student a month to back out if they dislike the class--nobody ever has.

How can you justify it?? Very simply--rent and time investment in the student. If a teacher has rent to pay it is much better to have a project-able cash flow. Contracts do this, and also normally prevent the student from just dropping out based on frustration or laziness. Many students think they will be Bruce-Lee in a week, and get discouraged when they actually have to work. Also as a teacher, if I don't know someone is going to hang around, I don't like to put a lot of energy into getting them up to snuff. I'd rather focus on serious people only, not vagabonds teacher wandering.

G

The clubs that send my alarm bells are ones that want you to sign as soon as you walk in the door. Or should I say, offer financing if you can't pay a year up front.

I personally pay monthly, if I miss classes due to work or being lazy that's my fault.




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[Dirty Dog]

I generally dislike them as well as a student. However I currently offer a discounted rate if they want to sign one tiered for 6-9-12 months. I also give the student a month to back out if they dislike the class--nobody ever has.

How can you justify it?? Very simply--rent and time investment in the student. If a teacher has rent to pay it is much better to have a project-able cash flow. Contracts do this, and also normally prevent the student from just dropping out based on frustration or laziness. Many students think they will be Bruce-Lee in a week, and get discouraged when they actually have to work. Also as a teacher, if I don't know someone is going to hang around, I don't like to put a lot of energy into getting them up to snuff. I'd rather focus on serious people only, not vagabonds teacher wandering.

G

So you do things as a teacher that you object to as a student?

That's not sketchy at all...

 

[Unreal Combat]

If a school has to rely on a contract to keep the cash flowing, rather than the quality of the teaching or services offered, then there's seriously something wrong here.

 

[WaterGal]

If a school has to rely on a contract to keep the cash flowing, rather than the quality of the teaching or services offered, then there's seriously something wrong here.

It's not about one or the other, necessarily. No matter how good your teaching is, if you don't know how many students you'll have pay you next month it makes it hard to budget. The master can't just go to the landlord and say "sorry, I can't pay my rent this month because my students went on vacation and didn't pay me".

If you expect a master instructor to take a huge risk and commit to being available on a full-time basis at a dedicated school, then you have to commit to help support the school. Personally, I think that's fair.

But there are definitely schools that expect you to commit and pay them every month and don't give you anything worthwhile for it, or who have unfair and exploitative terms in their contract (e.g. automatic renewal, paying a huge amount upfront, not letting you get out if you move away or lose your job), or who pressure you into signing things you don't want to. Those things aren't right.

 

[WaterGal]

So you do things as a teacher that you object to as a student?

That's not sketchy at all...

Who does like signing a contract or paying for things? I think most people would prefer it if everything were free and they never had to seriously commit to anything.

But if not enough students pay tuition every month, the school will close and all the students will lose the opportunity to study there forever (and the master will probably lose everything and end up in bankruptcy court, because nobody gives unsecured loans these days). So it's not a matter of "do you like signing up?" - it's a matter of "is studying here worth signing up?".

I think GaryR made some good points about the business side of martial arts and why contracts are used.

 

[jezr74]

Who does like signing a contract or paying for things? I think most people would prefer it if everything were free and they never had to seriously commit to anything.

But if not enough students pay tuition every month, the school will close and all the students will lose the opportunity to study there forever (and the master will probably lose everything and end up in bankruptcy court, because nobody gives unsecured loans these days). So it's not a matter of "do you like signing up?" - it's a matter of "is studying here worth signing up?".

I think GaryR made some good points about the business side of martial arts and why contracts are used.

I don't think you can make the leap from signing a contact to not wanting to pay for services. I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

But the risk doesn't go away if you have excessive termination fees. If a place of training is managed poorly, or a bad business decisions are made to open up in a location that's not good for your target clientele, or bad customer service. You will have bigger problems then customer retention. And trying to pass the buck may only hold things off temporarily, and also drive customers away.




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[Dirty Dog]

Who does like signing a contract or paying for things? I think most people would prefer it if everything were free and they never had to seriously commit to anything.

But if not enough students pay tuition every month, the school will close and all the students will lose the opportunity to study there forever (and the master will probably lose everything and end up in bankruptcy court, because nobody gives unsecured loans these days). So it's not a matter of "do you like signing up?" - it's a matter of "is studying here worth signing up?".

I think GaryR made some good points about the business side of martial arts and why contracts are used.

Nobody said anything about free, did they?
I don't like the contract model of MA training. I don't sign them. I don't ask others to sign them.
Asking others to sign a contract when I'm not willing to do so myself is, at the very least, hypocritical.
If your school can't survive a student going on vacation, or if it takes a contract to keep people paying, then maybe there's a problem with the school.

 

[WaterGal]

I don't think you can make the leap from signing a contact to not wanting to pay for services. I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

Neither was I, actually, though I can see how you'd think that from what I wrote. I guess I wasn't very clear - that whole "you can't tell tone on the internet" thing!

I'll try to be clearer. What I was trying to say was that it's not hypocritical or immoral for Gary to use contracts now even though he didn't like them when he was a student.

It's easy for students to talk about how they wish the dojang operated, how they would like to sign up or pay, when they don't know what running it actually involves. I did that, too. But once Mr. WaterGal and I started planning our school, I realized that GM did things like have contracts and charge the rates he did because that's what you have to do if you want to keep the school open and make a middle-class living from it. At least around here, where rents are very high.

When you open a school, it doesn't matter how you wish a school could be run, what you'd like - what matters is 1) helping your students and 2) actually keeping the school open. I think that if you do #1 well enough, #2 will follow to some extent. But you can't rely only on being a great teacher; you still have to think about business matters, about cash flow and expenses (and oh how many expenses does a dojang have), if you want to stay afloat.

But the risk doesn't go away if you have excessive termination fees. If a place of training is managed poorly, or a bad business decisions are made to open up in a location that's not good for your target clientele, or bad customer service. You will have bigger problems then customer retention. And trying to pass the buck may only hold things off temporarily, and also drive customers away.

I actually pretty much agree with you. I do think contracts are a useful tool and are part of a good business model, but they're not a solution in an of themselves. If a school sucks, contracts will keep the students paying for a while, but I think they'll resent it and leave ASAP. If your school is good, people are totally willing to keep signing up and I think a contract is just to protect your back, help with financial planning and make it so you can have automatic payments and not have to hassle people every month. You have to make it worth it for your students to commit.

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I feel like I should qualify all this, and my last two posts. I suspect I'm coming off like a contract evangelist or something, and I don't mean to.

Mr. WaterGal and I opened a dojang 4 months ago. It's been going great, we're growing really steadily (our GM says that we're already ahead of where he was at 6 months, when he started his school in a richer town 10 years ago), but we've put so much of our time and money and effort and love into this business, and we're just starting to get to a place where the school is paying for itself. Not even us making anything, but just not spending our own savings to pay for it.

Being able to look at the contracts we have and know for sure that we'll have at least $_____/month for the next 6 months is a big help in knowing how much we can afford to spend right now in advertising and supplies like extra mats, and I'm sure will be a big help with the bank if we need to borrow some money for a renovation project we're planning.

So when people talk about contracts like they're only about ripping people off and being greedy and covering up for bad training, it does make me defensive. I know for some places it might be somewhat about that, but for some of us it's really really not. For some of us, it's just about financial stability and planning for the school.

 

[GaryR]

So you do things as a teacher that you object to as a student?

That's not sketchy at all...

Not at all. I said "generally dislike", I also dislike having to sign a cell phone contract, or buy slightly more than I need at costco for a lower per-unit price, or really pay for anything for that matter. That doesn't mean I haven't done all of the above--including signing a contract myself as a student. In a perfect world there would be no contracts, no lawyers, no hunger, and no business end of anything, but it's not.

Even as a student I understood the reason for contracts, and did sign some. I don't push them, they are not required, and in fact as stated before give the student 30 days to change or get out of them, sketchy? Far from.

WaterGal covered the rest of what I would say basically--thanks WaterGal--

"I'll try to be clearer. What I was trying to say was that it's not hypocritical or immoral for Gary to use contracts now even though he didn't like them when he was a student.

It's easy for students to talk about how they wish the dojang operated, how they would like to sign up or pay, when they don't know what running it actually involves. I did that, too. But once Mr. WaterGal and I started planning our school, I realized that GM did things like have contracts and charge the rates he did because that's what you have to do if you want to keep the school open and make a middle-class living from it. At least around here, where rents are very high.

When you open a school, it doesn't matter how you wish a school could be run, what you'd like - what matters is 1) helping your students and 2) actually keeping the school open. I think that if you do #1 well enough, #2 will follow to some extent. But you can't rely only on being a great teacher; you still have to think about business matters, about cash flow and expenses (and oh how many expenses does a dojang have), if you want to stay afloat."

 

[Keramory]

Had no idea that there were contracts. Good concept though, especially in this era.
Teaching martial arts is, and I'm sorry if others don't agree, in my opinion a business. I don't see the issue of how the payment is handled. I also think its wrong to assume a status of a school based off contracts, as theres alot of factors that could keep a Dojo from doing well outside of the teaching and teacher(s).

The best solution to getting out of this contract is just talking to the teacher or a higherup from the one you signed with. They might understand and void the contract to help you out as you are a student. I might not have the right mentality to run a Dojo lol but if a young person came to me with the same issues I'd void the contract to help him out.

 

[Mr Mojo Lane]

I just talked to the head instructor and he was cool with it. The guy has a lot of students, anyways.