Bowing=Brain wash

[J-kid]

This is not ment to afend anyone just a point i would like to share with everyone. I think bowing to a picture and to a mat is rather dumb in most cases. why you bow to the mat i mean its not like it has a brain and can understand respect. When you bow its almost like you are admitting you are lower then someone . some people call this respect i call it a form of brain wash just like calling someone master. BECAUSE The only real master is yourself. I dont wanna get flamed . and ps bowing to a aponent to start a fight isnt what i was talking about . But what i do believe is bowing over time takes away your ablitiy to chose and all you do is try to apess people higher then you.

But i do wanna hear what you good people have to say.

 

[Danny]

Bowing shows respect, pure and simple. I bow to my seniors because I respect their rank, and dedication to their art, even if I don't perticularly respect them as a person. I bow at the entrance to the dojang because I respect my club. I bow to the Canadian flag because I respect my country. I bow to General Choi's picture because I was lucky enought to meet the man on several occasions and deeply respect him, and what he did in his life time. And finally I return the bow of my students because I respect them.

That's my reasons.

 

[J-kid]

I believe bowing slowly brain washs you in a sedle manner. I mean bowing to a flag a matt . Isnt it kinda weird if your from the us bowing to a kearon flag. What dos that have to do with Martial arts . you can still learn how to be respectful with out bowing try learning manors there is a start. and you dont have to bow that way.

 

[Danny]

I don't bow to the matt. And I don't bow to the Korean flag in class. However if it was present I would. To not do so would be like me sitting with my hat on laughing, and fooling around during The Star Spangled Banner.

 

[J-kid]

Good point but i got one to, So you proble have lost family in the past(assuming you loved and respected them) now like many familys i have photos of those loved ones do you walk around your house bowing to those photos. i mean if you are bowing to a picture of someone you have never met how about someone that cared about you and you care about why dont you bow to them. THought so

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Good point but i got one to, So you proble have lost family in the past(assuming you loved and respected them) now like many familys i have photos of those loved ones do you walk around your house bowing to those photos. i mean if you are bowing to a picture of someone you have never met how about someone that cared about you and you care about why dont you bow to them. THought so

Actually, many Asian cultures revere their dead family members and ancestors, often having shrines to them erected in their homes or nearby.

It would probably be a good idea for you to research these cultures before you start making blanket judgements about their practices.

Cthulhu

 

[Bod]

Wash your brain? Great idea!

(You can probably tell I'm a Buddhist)

 

[J-kid]

Hey just to tell you i am not asian and alot of people in MA are not so dont take anything the wrong way if you are. like i said not meant to afend anyone have a good day.

 

[tonbo]

I can see your point about mats not having any kind of brain to understand respect. No kidding. They are inanimate objects, and incapable of thought. Duh.

However, the bow is used when bowing in and out of a dojo space as a simple sign of respect. In essence, you can think of it as similar to saluting the flag, or putting your hand over your heart when saying the Pledge of Allegiance, or taking your hat off during any national anthem. Does a song or a flag recognize your action? No. But other people *seeing* you take these actions recognize that you are paying homage to something that you have a belief in.

I don't suggest that bowing is any kind of religious belief. However, I bow both before going into our dojo and before coming out. Why? Because I am demonstrating respect; I am saying a quick "thanks" to the knowledge in general, and to anyone that I might have missed while in class; also to those that have gone before me and made my learning possible. I also bow to both senior students, instructors, and students who bow to me. If beginning students see me bowing in and out of class, they understand that this is how we show respect, and they will follow suit.

I don't consider bowing any form of brain washing. If your school doesn't do it, don't do it. If your school *does* do it, ask why. Find out the reason behind it, don't just follow blindly. Also, if you have personal reasons for not bowing, then discuss those with your instructor. Above all else, remember the saying: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"---if you visit a school and see others bowing before entering a room, you might want to do the same, if for nothing more than to pay respect to *their* beliefs.

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Peace--

 

[fist of fury]

UFC/MMA= brainwashing

Alot people are brainwashed by different things.

 

[Dronak]

For someone who doesn't want to offend people or get flamed, Judo-kid, you're really not choosing your words properly. Bowing is not necessarily an admission that you're lower than someone or a submissive act. It could be, but more often than not it's a simple sign of respect. Look outside martial arts for a minute -- what about performers (actors, musicians, etc.) who bow to the applauding audience after they're done performing? Are they lowering themselves and saying they're lower than the audience? No, it's a sign of respect, they're thanking the audience for being there and supporting them. Without fans, the performers don't make any sales (tickets, albums, whatever) and they can't make a living from it. Inside martial arts, a bow still doesn't have to be submissive. When you bow to your teacher, does he or she bow back to you? If so, is he/she saying he/she is lower than you, a student in the class? No, it's a sign of respect again. Without the students, the teacher has no one to teach and cannot pass on the knowledge of the art. If there were no students ever, the arts would die out. I don't know where exactly you're getting the idea that bowing or the use of titles is brainwashing.

I think tonbo made some good points. If you're so concerned about bowing and your school does it, find out why. We bow to our teacher when he arrives and when class is over before we all leave. Why? To quote the rules handout we were given, it's to "show proper respect . . . After all, a master has demonstrated to the Grandmaster that he possesses the necessary talent and knowledge to reach this high level. Shaolin Martial Arts are over 1000 years old and each of the masters carries that history with them wherever they walk." Just for reference, he also bows to us when we bow to him. Also as tonbo points out, there's the "when in Rome" idea that you should follow other people's traditions when visiting them as a sign of respect of their beliefs. It doesn't hurt you to bow when everyone else does and it shows that you respect their beliefs.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi All,

I bow my Head with others, when in a Church or place or worship even if it is not my faith. Why? So as not to insult, or cause Problems.

I Bow My Head to the Flag of the United States of America, when entering and leaving the Training Area / AKA the mats.

I bow my head to my Instructor and I also bow back to my Students.

I even nod or bow my head on the street to people I meet.

In ALL of these, I keep my eyes open and aware and on anyone around me. (* Paranoid? Maybe. *) This is not meant as a disrespect, it is meant that yes I have shown simple respect and not Brain Washing.


Now, if you have ever been on the 'Streets' and come across the wrong person, or been in the wrong part of town, and if not then listen up, you can survive if you pay attention to what is around you, but do not challenge and offer respect.

By this I mean, that if you nod your head, but keep your eyes on the guys walking towards you, he know you have seen him and made eye contact, and acknowledged his presence, without challenge. Do not stare, but keep you head and eyes forward and be aware. This respect can get you back to a 'safe' place.

Now, from your 'tone' of words you have used, I would assume that you never nod your head yes to your instructor or school teachers. For is not nodding your head, but a small bow???? I thought So!! (* See how that last sentence just reaches out at you, and maybe even makes you wish to reach out towards me? Remember this is a written forum and no smiles can been seen. NO body language, so even though you state you do not wish to insult, the 'TONE' of your words can be reviewed, to better make your point sans (French for without) insulting others. *)


Respectfully and to those who care :asian:

Rich

 

[chufeng]

IMHO...

I bow when entering a dojo/kwoon...or when stepping onto a judo mat to remind myself to be humble and to be open to new instruction...it is a reminder to myself to empty my cup so I can be receptive to new ideas...I prepare for learning and view everyone else on the mat/in the kwoon as a source for knowledge.

I bow to the "memory" of those who preserved the art I practice as a way of saying thanks and, again, to humble myself...it reminds me to be true to the art and to not bring disrespect on it by being boastful or cocky.

I bow to my teacher to show respect and to thank him for sharing the information he has with me...after all, he doesn't have to share it with anybody if he doesn't want to.

I bow to those I train with as a greeting and to thank them for participating in my learning experience (after all, judo is hard to do all by yourself)...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[sweeper]

uhm.. brainwashing is a form of psychological conditioning where something is repeated over and over.. if bowing is brain washing, what is it brain washing you to do? Bow more??

 

[Nightingale]

for me, bowing at the studio entrance is showing appreciation for the knowledge that is taught inside. It is also a reminder for me to leave the problems and stresses of the day at the door and to remember that the "life" stuff outside can stay outside, because its time to train now.

I bow to my instructor out of appreciation for the knowledge he gives me. It is a reminder to myself that before you can understand something, you have to have an open mind and listen.

I bow to the other students when I'm teaching, or training under the guidance of another instructor, out of appreciation for the things they teach me, often times without realizing it, and appreciation for their willingness to help me on my martial arts journey.

I bow to my opponent at the beginning of a match to show that I respect them and intend to conduct myself fairly, and expect the same from them.

I bow to my opponent at the end of a match to thank them for the honor of training with them.

I bow to the judges at a tournament to indicate that I will respect their judgement, although sometimes I may not agree with it.

I bow to black belts because I respect the time and training that went into receiving their rank. It is a reminder to me that I still have much to learn.

Respectfully,

Nightingale

:asian:

 

[fanged_seamus]

Sometimes inanimate objects DESERVE respect -- guns are a prime example. Treat a gun with anything other than respect, and you or someone else is likely to get shot or hurt. Just trying to make a point....

From my point of view, the mats soak up my sweat and blood, and that's a crappy job -- so I thank the floor with a simple bow for letting me sweat and bleed on it.

In the studio where I learn, we don't bow to people -- we salute them with a simple hand gesture. It's our way of saying thanks to those teaching us and acknowledging our training partners.

Respect, to both people and objects, is important -- if you want it, you should give it.

 

[J-kid]

Ididnt think many of you could under stand . that would requir a open mind. And yes bowing over time makes you like a lap dog. I have many friends who have been in diffrent martial arts after a year or so they start taking ****, from us there friends. say i didnt agree with one of there points and start calling him stupid , he wont do anything or if i slap him. gos the same for people he dosnt even know. Another good point is bowing in martial arts is agaist some people religion check this out a real case. Also this case comes from my gym . Think about it

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/54083_judo11.shtml

 

[Kirk]

This is not meant to offend anyone just a point i would like to inquire about with you. I dont wanna get flamed, I'm really
curious.

It's typical that MMA'ers come in, spouting the same thing ...
Kata's are useless, MMA is the only effective art, traditions in
MA is pointless, 99.9% of all fights go to through ground, and
so on.

Is all the rhetoric in a magazine or book somewhere?

When people like yourself come in places like this, where people
(not myself) have DECADES of training, and get so confrontational,
e.g. saying they're brain washed, or don't have an open mind,
etc ... it really doesn't do much for your art and those in it.

I tell ya .. my contention is that you come here looking for some
kind of validation of your superiority or the superiority or your
art. Well that seems pointless to me, it's not going to happen.
And if you're not interested in what "traditional" m.a.ists believe,
then why post here? Why don't you just stick to the grappling,
judo, MMA forums, and get validated by your own kind .. which
seems to be the goal anyways.

 

[J-kid]

I just wanted to see if it was true and people really couldnt open there minds to the views of others. I never said you guys were wrong about bowing infact i admite that i bow befor fighting show equelship what i did say is it gets really out of hand/

Friend to all
Judo-Kid

 

[sweeper]

uhm.. you havn't presented any evidance that bowing brainwashes you you just stated that your freinds who were in MA over a year were acting brain washed.. I see no direct relation to the act of bowing.