Blasting people without contact

[Matt Stone]

Xingyi, at least the way we learn it in Yili, begins with the natural use of too much muscle, but is trained with an eye toward not using muscle...

Taiji is based on "effortless power," sure, but to say that Taiji makes use of no muscle is inaccurate... It takes somemuscle contraction to move no matter how large or small the movement. The issue is learning not to use too much muscle and end up impeding the movement of qi and jing. It is possible for an external style to generate an amazing amount of power - but not if the muscular movement gets in the way of letting physics do the work.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

I think your point about Hsing I Chuan is very well made. I think its hard to understand just whats going on at the energetic level when the style seems so hard and uses muscle as much as it does.

The energy is derived from the intent, just like TaiJi and BaGua.

Actually, the explosive counterattacks of XingYi come from coiled energy...and though the attacks may look like they hard...if you felt the arms and shoulders of the XingYi fighter just before, during, and after impact...you would feel soft relaxed muscles in the muscles of opposition and muscles contracting quickly but not tensely just prior to impact...at impact the muscles necessary to maintain the allignment of the attack would contract (essentially turning the attacking limb into a spear)...and immediately after impact all of the muscles would be relaxed (ready to fire again, if necessary)...carry this analysis down to the ground and I think you would see the same, except that slight tension would always be maintained in the legs...keeping them loaded.

I hope this helps...
:asian:
chufeng

 

[TkdWarrior]

Cranespeadswing:

Chi I would define as intrinsic energy or as Yang Jwing Ming defines it 'BioElectricity'. We do have Chi or Qi when we are born (according to Chinese Medical theory). It comes from mixing oxygen (Da Qi) and food (Ge Qi) inside the beautiful human machine. By developing this internal energy or qi with breathing and subsequent body mechanics practices we can build the amount of chi for storage in the dan tien.

u know wat that was good change for me otherwise i was gettting really bored by other definition of chi(being energy it lives in every living/non living bla blah blah)
i think chi exists from birth and Chi Generation as Improving on my Quality of Chi on physical/mental/spiritual level... it improves in the same process first physical then mental then spiritual.
i don't hav Degree in physics or expereince like Dr. Yang, but i do understand bit of bioelectricity...

yiliquan n cheufeng has a good point... didn't knew xingyi gets power from coiled energy?? is that due to round shoulders/back??

-TkdWarrior-

 

[CraneSpreadWings]

You guys were waiting for that huh?

"Taiji is based on "effortless power," sure, but to say that Taiji makes use of no muscle is inaccurate" (how do you make those neat boxes?)
Of course, otherwise 'sung' energy becomes falling down on the floor! I guess what I mean is that when striking we dont contract the major muscle groups...and we rely on the postures to develop small muscle groups and skeletal integrity...I find this a lot easier with the upper body than with kicks...

We also concentrate on being very relaxed in Hsing I until the moment of impact. I feel big differences between the 'whole body straight line' nature of hsing i and the 'whole body circular flow' of taichi. To me the force in Taichi is 'raised from the legs, translated by the hips, expressed in the extremities' with hsing i i feel the core of the body leading from the legs in a much different way. There is no spiraling or circular mechanics to guide the chi, it has to vibrate from the whole body all at once...kind of like peng jing in taichi... 2 cents...

Oh yeah...TKDW...'5000' years...Taichi was developed into a healing martial art from the 13 basic postures around 1100a.d. by Cheng San Feng (so they say)Before then taichi was practiced as single postures and partner work. While what we call Taichi is only about 900 years old the taichi philosophy is very old and yin/yang, five elements, and the ba gua (philosophical basis of taichi) is much older, seen in ancient medical texts back over 3000 years I think....I'll do some more reading on this...

 

[chufeng]

Of course there is spiralling energy in XingYi...it's just that the coil is much tighter...and your description of it feeling like a vibration is right on...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[CraneSpreadWings]

Just last night Sifu was discussing the rolling action of the dan tien leading the body in xing yi movements. Consciously thinking about this action helped my power saturation a lot right off the bat. I especially feel the spiraling in Hern chuan and in tsuann chuan but its also very evident in the pau chuan as a small torquing influence in the punch/posture...and there are opening and closing movements in the upper thoracic hinge....spot on, thanks a lot!

 

[emanrohe]

Well, i once read about an article in a chinese martial arts magazine that said the no-touch KO stuff actually has no chi involved.

What they said was that there was this story where one of the students of the great Yang Lu Chan (creator of yang style taiji) wanted to test his master's skill. During a horseback hunting trip, he attempted to shoot an arrow at yang but in the end, he was "hit" off his own horse. At least that was what everyone saw, and they thought that yang had projected his chi at the student in the no touch KO manner causing him to fall off the horse.

But what actually happened was that yang simply turned back and did a hand gesture at the student, having detected his students intent. The student, trying to avoid his master's "move" dodged to one side(reflex action) and this caused him to fall off his own horse.

The article also speaks of the writer sparring with a few of his friends, trying to learn this skill. Basically, the author and all his friends were experienced MA exponents who had practised MA since young.

In the instances where this skill worked, the user must successfully dodge his opponents attack and get to a position to hit the opponent at close range. For example, in an attack, A dodged B's punches and kicks in the front and found a chance to get to B's back. He then put his hand over B's face and B, immediately turned to one side, tried to jump away but in doing so, lost his balance and fell to the ground. Thus that is how this kind of attack works.

Thus the article summarises, this no touch KO thing actually depends on many things:
1>The good reflexes of the opponent you are trying this on. He must be able to at least try avoid your imminent attack.
2>Your ability to avoid your opponent's fierce attacks at clsoe range and throw him an attack at a vital area, like his face (but not actually touching it).
3> Your opponent must be able to see this attack coming, so you cannot perform it behind his back.
4>Your opponent must somehow feel conered.

 

[New boy]

I have seen no touch ko many times here in Taiwan but these so-called "Masters" will only do such "perfomance" on their own students and refuse any stranger's request for a trial. No, I do not believe such thing exists but I do "hope" it does just to prove our ancestors' old scriptures are true.

 

[punisher73]

I can't remember where I read it but, it was an article on hypnotic suggestions and stage hypnotism and how it related to "no touch knockouts". It talked about the relationship from the teacher to the student, and the student having such a high trust/faith in what the teacher says in essence hypnotizes himself to believe and react to what the teacher is saying. If a person can get you into a hypnotic state and then tells you that you're chi is weakening and you are going to fall down, or be struck and fly through the air I think it's possible that those are the results you will see and the person will believe that is what happened. The teacher may not realize that is what he is doing either, but I think the better ones (read frauds who do it all for money) do have a good study of NLP and hypnosis

There was an article about how Bodidharma (sp?) crossed the river on a reed to reach China, and how the word/symbol used was very similiar to the word used for small boat and how it was just a misinterpretation. It probably said he crossed the river in a small boat, not on a reed. I don't read chinese of anykind or speak it so I don't know if the article was correct but that it was interesting and would point it out.

 

[Skankatron Ltd]

"But does anyone notice that, while there are all sorts of theories of how to develop these powers (both the no-touch knockouts, the distance striking, the Empty Force qigong as well as all the pseudo-spiritual stuff), there are no verified reports of such things having been done for hundreds and thousands of years?"

Considering your so adamant in denying that the people to claim to be able to do this ACTUALLY do this, how do you think people before felt? For hundreds of thousands and thousands of years 'magic' of this type has been looked down on and disbeleived in. Instead people decide to believe in science, which brings me to...

Someone mentioned a phenomenological analysis of chi provided that it doesn't exist. My question: do you know what phenomenology means? The more respected version of phenomenology is held by Heidegger, not Husserl (which is who you must mean). In Heidegger's view, true objectivity is only acheived in Dasein (Being). This means that you can only take things as experiences, and those experiences are objectively true for you, but as soon as you try to reflectively analyse Dasein, it immediately breaks down, as you are no longer in Dasein. Thus, one would see the experience of Chi as objectively true, but reflectively analysing it as faulty. Unfortunately, this really only applies to individuals and no greater sense of objectivity, as phenomenology implies there is no such thing.

 

[Shadowdh]

Blasting people without contact can be done... by a shot gun or similar... Chi is not magic and should not be mystified... it was the mystification of taijiquan which kept me away from practicing it for so many years... chi is the biomechanical and biological processes... including blood flow, bioelectricity etc...

 

[Skankatron Ltd]

See, the problem is, whenever something mythical is discovered to be real, it is no longer mythical. Chi is only mythical until you experience it, when it then becomes a part of life.

 

[Shadowdh]

I have experienced Qi and as I stated its not the mystical force that so many in the west wish it to be... rather its what we in the west term "bio mechanics" and "bio processes"... sort of like sneakers and trainers... sneakers being a US term for sports shoe and Trainers being the UK term... same thing but different terms... not "myth" or mysticism...

 

[Skankatron Ltd]

At one point aspirin was considered a magical potion. My point is, for something to be mythical, it must have no grounding in reality, so when something is discovered to have said grounding, it isn't mythical. But I know what you mean about 'bio mechanics', i think. I just don't beleive its constrained to the limited view that 'bio mechanics' implies to me. Whatever though.