Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
Where in Korea?
Our dojang is located in Seoul near Sookmyeong Women's University.
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Where in Korea?
I wouldn't normally consider a 1st Dan to be a teaching rank. Of course, a lot depends on how long it takes to get to 1st Dan in a given system. For me, 1st dans, with few exceptions, should be focused on training, not distracted by teaching. But if it takes 5+ years to reach 1st Dan I'd probably feel differently. Since I teach and train in Korea and it only takes about a year to reach 1st Dan, I don't feel like 1st dans should be teaching.
A black belt (1st Dan), means someone who has mastered the physical basics of the art and has begun to refine the details. He or she carries himself/herself with dignity and humility. He or she melds life experience and martial arts skills to minimize conflict or to minimize harm should conflict be necessary. It is a way of being, which is not appropriate for children or teens, because they lack the proper emotional maturity.
Ok? Why make another thread on this? Just to post your own personal take on what a black belt is, or are you looking for a discussion here?
A black belt (1st Dan), means someone who has mastered the physical basics of the art and has begun to refine the details. He or she carries himself/herself with dignity and humility. He or she melds life experience and martial arts skills to minimize conflict or to minimize harm should conflict be necessary. It is a way of being, which is not appropriate for children or teens, because they lack the proper emotional maturity.
However, my relatives complain that the growing number of poom bbs and teen bbs is a result of the Olympics and American marketing.
Then the question becomes whether or not a black belt equates to any of the items you just mentioned. It it's all about physical skills or a level of proficiency in physical skills, then age is almost irrelevant, depending on what level of and what type of proficiency you're setting as the bar.American society puts limits on youths, because through science and other social measures, we know that young people, including teens, are still developing emotional, cognitive and psychological elements in his or her personality. While a child may be mature for his or her age, that maturity is not equivalent to an adult. Children are not permitted to vote, drink, own guns, rent hotel rooms, et cetera. Age, per se, is not alone a measure of maturity, but it is an important guideline upon which our society operates. It is odd that some MA schools or teachers believe their students are different.
I'll agree with you 100% on the American marketing, though I would not limit it to American.Even in Korea, where I have been on different occasions, dan members are looked at as leaders and models of the art. However, my relatives complain that the growing number of poom bbs and teen bbs is a result of the Olympics and American marketing.
I'll agree with you 100% on the American marketing, though I would not limit it to American.
Please connect for me how the Olympics translates to greater numbers of pum belts? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have yet to hear a convincing argument to support this. I'm not a big fan of what I see of taekwondo in the Olympics, but I see the kiddie belt phenomenon as separate; it was in full swing before Olympic inclusion up here.
In fact, the organization most famous for kiddie belts is arguably the ATA, and they aren't connected to the Olympics. I've said that commercialism is the biggest issue in the art, and if you look at commercial schools with lots of kids in black belts, you will also see overpriced tests. Adults tend to be less concerned with getting the belt and will happilly stay at red belt in order to avoid paying the up to 500.00 for the right to test (several schools up here charge that kind of money for a TKD black belt, including one that I attenended some time ago). Parents, on the other hand, are more easily talked into it because getting that token is very important to a child.
Black belt clubs, masters clubs, and leadership clubs are also aimed at kids and teens for the same reason; kids love getting those extra patches and nicer uniforms. And parents are more likely to shell out for their kids to have them than an adult is for themselves.
I can agree with you here. I haven't looked at percentages, but do you think that the marketing push from the Olympic movement has resulted in a higher percentage of kiddie belts or just a higher quanitity due to increased membership?Sure the KKW was issuing poom belts before the WTF got accepted into the Olympics. But since then the Polympic movement has been used as a marketing tool in order to get more people, including children, to sign up for Taekwondo. There was a boom in Taekwondo after the Seoul Olympics I have have personally seen many schools who bill themselves as "Olympic Taekwondo" and who cater to children. It's not some conspiracy, it's simple marketing.
These points are exactly right but don't disprove Rumy's statement, IMNSHO. You can get one end by several different means.
Pax,
Chris
I can agree with you here. I haven't looked at percentages, but do you think that the marketing push from the Olympic movement has resulted in a higher percentage of kiddie belts or just a higher quanitity due to increased membership?
Overall, I think you're probably correct. I don't remember seeing the huge jump in kiddie belts until the ninja craze and the Karate Kid. I don't know about your area, but around here the karate kid film was impacted kids enrolling in "karate" schools, most of which in this area were TKD, at a much, much higher rate.That's a good question. To get an accurate answer you'd need to compare the number of poom belts issued pre-Olympics to those issued post-Olympics and compare those numbers to the number of children training during each of those two times. I don't think it's possible to get the latter numbers. It seems to me, however, that in the main the Olympic marketing has resulted in a general increase in the enrollment of children, which would naturally result in more poom belts being issued. From my limited, anecdotal experience it also appears that there is a greater percentage of children being awarded poom belts/junior black belts/whatever than there were in the past. When I first started training in 1981 I don't even remember there being a non-adult black belt in class. There were other kids in class with me but none had reached dan level.
Agreed. I'm okay with the idea in principle, given my view of what a black belt means, but my observation is that school owners' use of kiddie belts is entirely for profit. The overpriced testing fees combined with the relaxed standards I frequently see in kids classes makes it hard to convince me otherwise. I don't judge the schools that do it, but it is not a practice that I am in favor of.I know the reasons people give for having poom rank or junior black belts. I just don't find them very compelling. I can see a junior black belt for I dan or a 1st poom. But, IMO, anything higher than that should have taken enough time and training experience for the student to be qualified for an "adult" degree.
Overall, I think you're probably correct. I don't remember seeing the huge jump in kiddie belts until the ninja craze and the Karate Kid. I don't know about your area, but around here the karate kid film was impacted kids enrolling in "karate" schools, most of which in this area were TKD, at a much, much higher rate.
Agreed. I'm okay with the idea in principle, given my view of what a black belt means, but my observation is that school owners' use of kiddie belts is entirely for profit. The overpriced testing fees combined with the relaxed standards I frequently see in kids classes makes it hard to convince me otherwise. I don't judge the schools that do it, but it is not a practice that I am in favor of.
Definitely with you here. I don't expect a first dan to be more than a beginning level, but a person who is awarded a first dan should be able to demonstrate a certain level of proficiency. And regardless of what art you practice, you can generally pick that level out without needing to know what belt they are.1st dan might be a beginning level, but does that mean we have to have a low standard for it?
A black belt (1st Dan), means someone who has mastered the physical basics of the art and has begun to refine the details. He or she carries himself/herself with dignity and humility. He or she melds life experience and martial arts skills to minimize conflict or to minimize harm should conflict be necessary. It is a way of being, which is not appropriate for children or teens, because they lack the proper emotional maturity.
Going back to the OP, would you clarify what you mean by 'mastered the physical basics'? I'd be interested to know what you believe a 1st dan has mastered.
Outside of the martial arts, the term 'mastered' is used frequently to indicate having learned or having become proficient. Personally, I think we make far to much of the word master, be it verb or noun.
FWIW, I agree with your post above about expectations for the first dan (#35).
I get what you mean, but in the skilled trades there's quite a difference between apprentice, journeyman, and master. I think of mastery as having a deeper understanding than proficiency.
I wasn't even thinking of the skilled trades. I was just thinking of general conversation. Telling your kids that they must master addition and subtraction before they can move onto multiplication, for example.I get what you mean, but in the skilled trades there's quite a difference between apprentice, journeyman, and master. I don't particularly think a high school graduate has mastered anything, but s/he may be proficient. When I was a second lieutenant in the Infantry I was proficient at the basics, but to say I had mastered anything stretches my understanding of the term. I think of a first dan as a high school graduate or a second lieutenant: stepping from apprentice to journeyman.