BJJ hardcore sparring

[kingofjong]

Hello

Does any one know of good schools in Illinois USA that teaches BJJ with hardcore sparring? What I mean by hardcore sparring is competition, MMA, or street fight situations where the guy comes at you full force. They also train against punches and kicks.

Thank you
Kingofjong

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

For the record, you are describing MMA, not BJJ. In BJJ all sparring should be the same - everyone giving it their all, but doing it safely.

 

[kingofjong]

For the record, you are describing MMA, not BJJ. In BJJ all sparring should be the same - everyone giving it their all, but doing it safely.

No I am referring to BJJ where they train against punches and kicks and how to defend against them using BJJ and grappling.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

No I am referring to BJJ where they train against punches and kicks and how to defend against them using BJJ and grappling.

For this to be effective, the school would have to train punches and kicks - otherwise you'll be defending against/sparring against bad attacks. Kind of the reverse of the issue that normally happens when striking styles try to add 'anti-grappling defense'.

So either you'll have ineffective BJJ, or you'll be learning striking in addition to BJJ (especially if you're including this in sparring), which is essentially MMA.

 

[skribs]

For this to be effective, the school would have to train punches and kicks - otherwise you'll be defending against/sparring against bad attacks. Kind of the reverse of the issue that normally happens when striking styles try to add 'anti-grappling defense'.

So either you'll have ineffective BJJ, or you'll be learning striking in addition to BJJ (especially if you're including this in sparring), which is essentially MMA.

Many BJJ schools also have MMA or Muay Thai classes. There are self-defense focused BJJ schools and MMA-focused BJJ schools that will teach some skills that are outside of "traditional" BJJ. And there's a recent trend of combat jiu-jitsu.

With that said, none of those schools should spar the way OP mentions.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Many BJJ schools also have MMA or Muay Thai classes. There are self-defense focused BJJ schools and MMA-focused BJJ schools that will teach some skills that are outside of "traditional" BJJ. And there's a recent trend of combat jiu-jitsu.

With that said, none of those schools should spar the way OP mentions.

BJJ schools that teach MMA or muay thai, in my mind, count as MMA schools. And combat jiu-jitsu can fall into the category I mentioned of ineffective striking causing bad striking defenses, depending on how they do it.

I fully agree that no school should spar how OP wants though.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For this to be effective, the school would have to train punches and kicks - otherwise you'll be defending against/sparring against bad attacks. Kind of the reverse of the issue that normally happens when striking styles try to add 'anti-grappling defense'.

So either you'll have ineffective BJJ, or you'll be learning striking in addition to BJJ (especially if you're including this in sparring), which is essentially MMA.

For the record, I do include defense against punching* in my BJJ classes. That sort of training has been part of the BJJ tradition since long before modern MMA existed.

I do have precisely the problem you describe, in that the quality of the practice is limited by the ability of students to present competent punches to for their partners to defend against. Some of my students have a background in striking arts and others do not. I already have enough to teach on the grappling side of things, so I give just the bare minimum of instruction in punching to those students without a background so they can present the correct stimulus for the techniques being trained.

It's not ineffective BJJ - everything I teach is stuff I've done in sparring against high level strikers. But the students are only going to get as good as the training partners they work with. So I tell them that they are learning the basics for dealing with untrained opponents and that in order to get really good at grappling against strikes they will need to spar with more experienced strikers - which typically means visiting the MMA class. (Although sometimes we have enough competent strikers in my BJJ class that we can get in some good sparring sessions for everyone.)

If we didn't have MMA, Boxing, and Muay Thai classes available in our gym, I would devote more time to building fundamental striking skills for all my BJJ students. As it is, I give them just enough so that they can practice their "anti-striking" techniques correctly.

*(So far, I haven't spent much time teaching kick defenses. The reason is two-fold. First, it takes longer to teach someone to throw an effective kick than an effective punch. Second, from a self-defense standpoint, the odds of being mugged by a skilled kicker are relatively low. Until I get more students who happen to have a solid background in kicking, I'm content to let those who want to learn effective grappling against kickers go to the MMA class for that.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That said, I agree with everyone who is pointing out that the OP seems to misunderstand the difference between sparring and fighting.

 

[skribs]

BJJ schools that teach MMA or muay thai, in my mind, count as MMA schools.

I'm not going to say this is a bad categorization, and in the right contexts can make a lot of sense.

But if your school is called BJJ, and you're getting belts in BJJ, then you're doing BJJ, even if it has some bonus additions.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It's not ineffective BJJ - everything I teach is stuff I've done in sparring against high level strikers. But the students are only going to get as good as the training partners they work with. So I tell them that they are learning the basics for dealing with untrained opponents and that in order to get really good at grappling against strikes they will need to spar with more experienced strikers - which typically means visiting the MMA class. (Although sometimes we have enough competent strikers in my BJJ class that we can get in some good sparring sessions for everyone.)

How you describe it is basically what my NY dojo did - they have BJJ, Muay thai, kali, and a hybrid/mixed class. But a lot of people stick mainly to one class. While the moves they teach in grappling defense themselves are theoretically effective, my experience is that, like yours, they can only get so good when the people they're training with don't know how to strike well. Which makes it, from a practical standpoint, fairly ineffective. There's an easy solution, and it's got everything it needs to become effective, but then you'd have to focus on teaching striking in a BJJ class, which isn't why people are normally going to those classes.

Outside of that, having hybrid/mma classes with people from both disciplines being able to spar each other seems like the most effective method to me.

 

[wab25]

I do have precisely the problem you describe, in that the quality of the practice is limited by the ability of students to present competent punches to for their partners to defend against. Some of my students have a background in striking arts and others do not. I already have enough to teach on the grappling side of things, so I give just the bare minimum of instruction in punching to those students without a background so they can present the correct stimulus for the techniques being trained.

It's not ineffective BJJ - everything I teach is stuff I've done in sparring against high level strikers. But the students are only going to get as good as the training partners they work with. So I tell them that they are learning the basics for dealing with untrained opponents and that in order to get really good at grappling against strikes they will need to spar with more experienced strikers - which typically means visiting the MMA class. (Although sometimes we have enough competent strikers in my BJJ class that we can get in some good sparring sessions for everyone.)

I have the same situation... except instead of the MMA class, we only have a Shotokan Karate class to send them to for striking.

I look at this more as an opportunity than as a problem. When I have a student throw a punch at me, to demonstrate a technique against a punch.... I have to to the technique with the punch being thrown, not with the punch I wanted. I have students that have various types of previous / simultaneous training. Karate, TKD, Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, Kung Fu, Kali... I also have students who have just been in fights at the bar and some that have no clue how to punch at all. When I know the student, I have some idea what to expect in terms of the punch I will receive. But, when I demonstrate the technique against the boxer.... sometimes the kung fu guy will want to feel it... and then the bar fighter will want to feel it. This lets me train my technique more in depth and shows me where I need work.

The most interesting is when we have a new student. Then you truly do not know what to expect when they punch. (yes, I do talk to them and ask.... but I have had 3-4 people showing up with "a few years of BJJ" that were completely lost when we did our shrimping exercise during warm ups and we have had our share of "karate guys" that would be knocked out by a wet paper bag with limp noodles for arms...) Getting the technique you want, with control, against a punch that you truly do not know what to expect.... is pretty decent training. Sometimes you find that trained strikers are easier to deal with than untrained flailers.... especially when you have to maintain control of their safety as well.

This training has worked pretty well for me. When I go to other schools or spar with people of different backgrounds... the experience of getting my technique from the punch thrown has been really beneficial to getting my stuff to work in sparring sessions with other arts. That said, you do have to get out of the house as Tony says, and try this stuff with people who do know how to punch. If you stay only with in your little group, you will be limited by skill set there. But, if you can get out to different groups, you can use your experience of getting different types of punches from different people to help you improve your techniques. So I see this as an opportunity, provided you augment it with real sparring, with folks you can hit you. Interestingly, if you do get attacked on the street.... you are as likely to get a completely untrained guy trying to knock your block off as you are to get someone with training.

 

[Oily Dragon]

So, I was taught two types of BJJ. This was after years and years of judo and kung fu, but it helped nail a few things down.

The two types were of course sport and street.

In the street mode of BJJ, "grip fighting" changes to punching and kicking. No-gi brings even more out. Instead of trying to grab fabric, you are trying to inject your limbs inside another person's. I think this is where BJJ and Vale Tudor meet but good luck finding a local school.

In the sport mode, gi chokes, armbars, and leg locks. So basically, judo. Training leg locks is one thing, using them for real is another.

If you've never injured a partner, you won't understand what I mean.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So, I was taught two types of BJJ. This was after years and years of judo and kung fu, but it helped nail a few things down.

The two types were of course sport and street.

In the street mode of BJJ, "grip fighting" changes to punching and kicking. No-gi brings even more out. Instead of trying to grab fabric, you are trying to inject your limbs inside another person's. I think this is where BJJ and Vale Tudor meet but good luck finding a local school.

In the sport mode, gi chokes, armbars, and leg locks. So basically, judo. Training leg locks is one thing, using them for real is another.

If you've never injured a partner, you won't understand what I mean.

I don't think of it as two types of BJJ - just different applications of the same principles in different contexts.

I want my students to be able to take the skills and concepts they have learned and apply them in different situations, e.g.

Sturdy grabbable clothing present or not?
Striking present or not?
Trying to control someone without injury or trying to damage them?
Trying to control an opponent or trying to escape?
Weapons present or not?
Alone or with companions?
Single opponent or multiple?
Sporting ruleset or not?
If a sport ruleset, what rules? IBJJF? MMA? EBI? ADCC? Submission only?
Is the opponent bigger? Faster? A better striker? A better wrestler? Better at submissions? Reckless? Careful? A dirty fighter?
etc, etc, etc.

My goal is for the physical principles to be sufficiently embedded that the practitioner can have the mental flexibility to evaluate the tactical needs of the circumstances at hand and apply/adjust techniques in an appropriate manner rather than blindly following some pre-programmed routine which may be totally wrong in the moment.

 

[dunc]

My advice to @kingofjong would be to get stuck in with a good local BJJ academy and see how you get on
You may find even the most basic sparring to be hard core enough for you to start with

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don't think of it as two types of BJJ - just different applications of the same principles in different contexts.

I want my students to be able to take the skills and concepts they have learned and apply them in different situations, e.g.

Sturdy grabbable clothing present or not?
Striking present or not?
Trying to control someone without injury or trying to damage them?
Trying to control an opponent or trying to escape?
Weapons present or not?
Alone or with companions?
Single opponent or multiple?
Sporting ruleset or not?
If a sport ruleset, what rules? IBJJF? MMA? EBI? ADCC? Submission only?
Is the opponent bigger? Faster? A better striker? A better wrestler? Better at submissions? Reckless? Careful? A dirty fighter?
etc, etc, etc.

My goal is for the physical principles to be sufficiently embedded that the practitioner can have the mental flexibility to evaluate the tactical needs of the circumstances at hand and apply/adjust techniques in an appropriate manner rather than blindly following some pre-programmed routine which may be totally wrong in the moment.

There is nothing worse than hurting a student.

I've never hurt a student, but I've been hurt by many masters.

My judo master once choked me unconscious. I returned the favor.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My judo master once choked me unconscious. I returned the favor

On purpose?

I've choked two partners out in sparring, not deliberately. In the first case it hit so quickly that he went out before he could get his hand up to tap. In the second it was apparently so sneaky that he didn't realize he was in trouble. I let go when I realized he was out. (He insisted afterwards that he never felt in any danger and it took some convincing to persuade him that he had been lying there snoring.)

I haven't been choked out myself yet, but I came close once. I was spinning out of a gi choke and felt the lights start to go out but the momentum of my rotation got me out of danger before I could think to tap.

 

[Oily Dragon]

On purpose?

Not at all, but I was just following orders, you know.

He had a surprised look, which is common on people recovering from blood chokes.

It's a weird art, judo.

 

[drop bear]

On purpose?

I've choked two partners out in sparring, not deliberately. In the first case it hit so quickly that he went out before he could get his hand up to tap. In the second it was apparently so sneaky that he didn't realize he was in trouble. I let go when I realized he was out. (He insisted afterwards that he never felt in any danger and it took some convincing to persuade him that he had been lying there snoring.)

I haven't been choked out myself yet, but I came close once. I was spinning out of a gi choke and felt the lights start to go out but the momentum of my rotation got me out of danger before I could think to tap.

We have guys who will straight up not tap.