becoming disillusioned with kenpo...

[twinkletoes]

I've been doing Kenpo Karate since age 8 (15 years ago). I am a 3rd degree black belt at a great (and reputable) school. I also have rank in Modern Arnis, and teach some other styles (including BJJ). I am quickly losing my love of Kenpo. Has anyone else gone through this?

My school has sparring, and our instructor used to box (so he's all about gloving up and seeing what works), but I just can't bring myself to teach katas and prearranged, theoretical techniques any more. My heart isn't in it. After all this BJJ, I want resisting partners and alive training (my BJJ instructor is Roy Harris, and the more I talk with him about JKD, the more I see myself going in that direction).

If you read Parker's works, he speaks almost the same language as Bruce Lee: don't get locked into fixed training, improvise, spar, there is no truth except contact, etc. Doesn't it seem like Kenpo is getting away from that, with all of our non-contact or compliant partner techniques and lots of kata?

Has anyone else felt this way?

~Chris

 

[clapping_tiger]

I have not been training for 15 years, so I don't know first hand about your situation. But there must be some reason you have stuck with Kenpo for 15 years, right? Maybe you just don't like teaching, or teaching beginning students. Perhaps you need to focus on your training for a short time and mix it up with some other Black Belts and just stop going through the motions for a while. I know that there are some people out there who just don't want to get hurt, and they have just as much of a right to train as someone who is looking for a little bit more. Keeping these paying (but don't want the contact) students in the school is good for business, it sometimes makes the classes (whether you are teaching it or taking it) a little soft for the more serious student. You just need to find someone with the same mindset as you, go out on a mat, and explore all your skills in a fighting scenario. Be it Kenpo, BJJ, or whatever. 15 years of experience is not something you just want to throw away. There has to be something you can do to rekindle that spark.

I don't know if this reply helps out, but I really hope someone with more experience replies to this and can give you some "I've been there" advise.

 

[Ender]

Well I have stuck with Kenpo for about 11 years now. but in a sense you are correct. alot is variations of the same. I started in lima lama as a kid, later went to shoto khan. also studied some Arnis and some knife fighting techniques from other styles. Even did a bit of Jeet Kun do. ..but what i find is that i added them to my kenpo arsenal. so in essence I was just expanding my knowledge. Kenpo is not the end all of the martial arts, but it is the one I like best and fits me better. Maybe you should try out some different things, just to see. just a thought.

 

[Kirk]

Kata?? What kenpo guy calls them "kata"? Me senseth a troll.

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by Kirk
Kata?? What kenpo guy calls them "kata"? Me senseth a troll.

Well I have been known to say kata- :rofl:

Itchy trigger finger there, Kirk?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Jill666
Well I have been known to say kata- :rofl:

Itchy trigger finger there, Kirk?

Do you do kenpo or kempo?

 

[KenpoDragon]

Originally posted by Kirk
Do you do kenpo or kempo?

I have studied Kenpo, American Kenpo, but I call forms kata sometimes, it just depends on who I'm talking to. Forms are katas, katas are forms. Same thing, the only difference is Japanese or English, one is Japanese, the other is English.

:asian: KenpoDragon

 

[Michael Billings]

But then I use the standard naming convention after saying "lets do Kata tonight, starting with Short Form One."

Something about "old dogs", "new tricks" and braincells dying by the bucketload the older I get.

Oss!

 

[KenpoDragon]

Mr.Twinkletoes,hehehe, sorry....Kenpo's techniques in my opinion are to set a base for its practitioners. Not a total and complete set response for every attack, but more the ability to be spontaneous, and formulate your own movements to adapt to the particular situation. It gives us a possible solution, not a must solution. At your level I can understand your desire to seek out something new, but that doesn't mean that you have to disregard all of your previous training. Just my thoughts though, to each his own.

:asian: KenpoDragon

 

[redfang]

The nature of kenpo makes it difficult to practice many techniques with any degree of force against resisting partners. Since kenpo likes to target vital targets for quick disabling it doesn't work unless the partner is covered in protective gear. I personally don't think sparring (tournament style) is very realistic or satisfying either. It reminds me of being a kid and slap boxing with my friends (I could of got you there! No way, I could of got you!) I do think that there is value in the techniques and the sparring, as well as kata (yes, we call the forms kata in our school). Some people really enjoy the artistry of kata (it is a martial 'art') and find that the forms benefit their footwork. Many beginners build confidence and a firm base through mastery of techniques.
Our school also teaches shootfighting and our sparring is more in the NHB format because of this. I find this more satisfying, more realistic than point sparring. When this isn't enough, I study other arts that give me things kenpo can't. Right now for me it's tai chi. For you it sounds like Jeet Kun Do might be a nice fit.
Good journeying!

 

[Old Guy]

Whenever I throw a party I jokingly tell people "Whatever you would like to see at the party, bring it. That way if you don't have a good time, it's your fault." If you are no longer finding what you like in Kenpo, try bringing something else to it. Remember, it is your Kenpo.

Full salute. Full respect.
Rick

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Things kenpo can't?"

Oy. The basic point is that--it's often noted--kenpo is not a martial art style. It's a decoding of martial arts styles, a reading of their basic means of operation--no offense, but the argument is that kenpo stands in regard to hitrerto existing martial arts as marxism (settle down--used the small "m") stands in regard to hitherto existing philosophies. Which is to say that kenpo--and the claim is inherent in Mr. Parker's whole work, for all his flaws--is the laid-bare truth about what they were up to all along. Just as science is the truth about alchemy.

"The fault, dear Brutus lies not in our stars, but in ourselves/That we be slaves..."

Sorry--I'm feeling gnomic this weekend.

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Guiseppe Betri]

Hey Kirk, I call forms katas and I'm a Kenpo guy. Don't you hold a purple or blue belt? Maybe you could grace me with some of your "pearls" of wisdom and enlighten me as to what you meant by that earlier question.

 

[RCastillo]

I agree with just about all here, step back, take a good look, reassess the situation, take a break if need be. I liked it best what "Old Guy" said, "It's your Kenpo!" A wakeup call if I ever heard one! Thanks Old Guy!

BTW, I also say Kata, Pattern, or Form.:asian:

 

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
but I just can't bring myself to teach katas and prearranged, theoretical techniques any more. My heart isn't in it.

if you don't want to teach things like that, don't teach.

After all this BJJ, I want resisting partners and alive training

~Chris

if you want a real ALIVE training, why don't you go to some bad neighborhood or bar and pick up some fights there ?

trust me, you will have more fun than anything you ever encounter.

if you are lucky, you may find somebody like you in your school.

If i were you, i will go to the bar and pick up a fight with a BIG and BAD guy with a lot of tatoos and have a COLD beer afterward in another bar to celerate 1 more accomplishment if you know what i'm saying.

if having many accomplishment with your KENPO, you will never wonder why it is NUMBER 1 because it is so AWESOME

 

[satans.barber]

I've gone through that a little bit from time to time, but I think people should just use whatever art they're in as a base for creating their own fighting style - kempo just makes a better base than some other arts IMHO, because of the variety taught. I've always liked the JKD concept, and I do tend to lean towards that a bit, even being in a kenpo school (there's not a lot of difference between the two really if you start to adapt I don't think...).

Two of my Larry Tatum tapes arrived last week, and I think they restored my faith a bit! It's easy to see that it can work really well when done properly, and just motivated me to train harder (also, watching Clyde get's his neat pony tail all mussed up was pretty funny :rofl: )

Ian.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by satans.barber

Two of my Larry Tatum tapes arrived last week, and I think they restored my faith a bit! It's easy to see that it can work really well when done properly, and just motivated me to train harder (also, watching Clyde get's his neat pony tail all mussed up was pretty funny :rofl: )

Ian.

See, I told you it was worth the investment if for any other reason than to watch me get pounded LOL. Watch the Locking Horns tech, it'll get you giggling for sure.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Guiseppe Betri
Hey Kirk, I call forms katas and I'm a Kenpo guy. Don't you hold a purple or blue belt? Maybe you could grace me with some of your "pearls" of wisdom and enlighten me as to what you meant by that earlier question.

Nice post

It was my understanding that Mr Parker created an American art,
and didn't want them to be called Katas, and didn't want to be
called Sifu, or Sensei. I've already been corrected on this, but
thanks for posting anyway.

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
I want resisting partners and alive training

forms can be "applied" in a sense. i often throw the attacks at students while they do the form so they get a better sense of what is happening, and it forces them a bit to actually commit to the movement they are going through. not particularly realistic, but it helps. i've found this to be a great way for students to learn to develope power and balance in short 1 especially, since they are just starting out with the system at that point.

admittedly, forms are not my favorite part of the cirriculum to teach, but i still like teaching them. there's so much in them. i do know what you are saying though and i think we have all been there.

 

[twinkletoes]

Wow, I had no idea I'd spark such, uh, controversy. No trolling here, my question is genuine. Let me respond to a couple of questions/comments:

--Yes, it's American Kenpo, but we call them kata. We also call the instructors Sifu. The system I do came down through a Tracy Lineage, but it has a lot of the more signature Parker style elements to it. The techniques etc. are mostly Tracy.

--I understand that the techniques, forms, etc. are supposed to be examples of optimal ways that a situation *could* be handled, and that reps of these will form habits, but there is such an.......obsession with them. "Is this technique supposed to be have a middle knuckle fist or a two finger spear?" For all that my fellow staff members say that they understand that it doesn't matter, they spend a LOT of time bickering over this stuff. And I find it inconsequential. I'd rather see if they can pull it off in sparring. While that technique *might* work if you had proper timing, positioning, and attributes, repeating cooperative techniques or solo forms doesn't build that.

--When I say 'alive' training, I don't necessarily mean sparring, but alive in a Matt Thornton sense (Resistance, Timing, and Footwork in an unchoreographed setting). There can be tons of limitations that make it different from sparring. I'd just rather train and teach this way.

--As for bringing it to my teaching, I'm doing what I can. Rather than countless reps of blocks or punches from a horse stance or fighting stance (we don't use the neutral bow terminology at our school), I get them partnered and moving around and practicing it in unrehearsed ways. But there is still a lot of pressure on me (from the other instructors, including my seniors) to emphasize the promotion requirements, and those are almost entirely the techniques and katas.

--When I was in college I competed in ballroom dancing. These days, if I wanted to do something aesthetic, I'd put on music, grab a partner, and go dance. But if I want to train martial arts, I don't want to spend all my time doing things that *look* cool but aren't aimed at effectiveness. I'm all for artistic displays, but not when I'm trying to build fighting ability.

cont.

*edited for spelling