"Be like water" ?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by cdhall
Just another "angle" on this from me. I don't read enough but I do use this quote usually to indicate that I want you to suffocate your opponent. I am in American Kenpo so we have several techniques that move in on your opponent fast and hard from more than one direction like water rushing at and around and over a boulder in a river. Like in the rapids.

I also called one of our fighters a Kenpo Waterfall last week because, just like the water above, when this comes at you, you can't get him off. Just like the rock. He's all over you. Everywhere. I used to call him a train because it was like you couldn't get out of the way and you couldn't circle him because he'll track you like a missle, but I decided that the Kenpo Waterfall thing worked well. And it feeds off that "formless" idea that you seek your target/shape...

I hope that makes some sense. I only brought it up because it seemed to be different from what you guys have already said.

All of which looked good to me.
:asian:

Absolutely. In the interview where Bruce made that quote (at least, where I've seen it), he says something along the lines of: "Water can flow or water can crash. Water can envelop or water can fill. Put water in a cup, it becomes the cup. Put it in a pot, it becomes the pot. It is formless, but takes the form of whatever is required at that moment. Be like water, my friend."

To "be like water" is to be much more than one thing. It is, in essence, to be what is needed at any given moment. Whether that's hard (like frozen water), soft (what's "softer" than steam?), evasive, crashing, flowing, enveloping, drowning, filling, elusive, etc.

Mike

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Originally posted by MantisMan
My point didn't come across too well. I wasn't saying that you should trade punches so that if he punches so do I - exactly. Not that simple. It's less sequential, and more immediate than that.

For example:
1. An opponent moves to execute a right-hand hook
2. Anticipating the movement from the arm you swing away from the point of impact - with the direction of the opponent's movement - hopefully eliminating their strike force
3. At the same time you execute your own punch along the same lines, which your opponent has opened up during his movement.

Does that make sense? Or am I barking up a very strange tree with this one?

At my gym, we call this technique "Simple Riposte". It comes from "Boxe de Francais Savate" which has alot of these types of movements, moving with a technique to reduce its force. It takes alot of footwork coordination to be effective.

In reference to the "Be like water" translation, I believe the closest translation was said by the person whom mentioned "Formless form".

:asian:

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt
which has alot of these types of movements

If I understand correctly, we also call this Moving Up The Circle in American Kenpo as taught by Ed Parker.
:asian:

 

[TargetAlex]

Just on a side note, crazy Chihuahua said:

Niagara falls gets wider every year by something like almost ten feet.

Actually, according to the people responsible for tracking this, it is one or two inches per year.

 

[pittjunky]

I just got through watching a 2 hour long documentery on Bruce Lee last week and you all have very valid points, but his point and meaning behind that analogy was also his personal philosophy toword martial arts. He belived, and rightly so, that most of the arts that were being tought at the time were teaching rehersed traditional moves that emphasised form and not necessarily function. The more he studied the more he realized that in a real world situation all the fancy perfect kicks in the world won't necessarily save you in an old fashioned street fight wear points ment nothing. He upset alot of people by saying, in not so many words, that 1,000 yrs of tradition and for some a life long comitment was good for show and not really much more. The style he developed is one of function v/s form. Quick, simple moves that have a very high probability of success in most situations and conditions. On the street you rarly see someone stand in 1 spot, nice and square throw a slow right punch and waight for you to do somthing. So if you're limited to a single set of moves for a few rehersed sinarios your toast. He's saying don't limit yourself to one style or another. Take what works change or modifie what doesn't, and leave the rest.
A rock may be solid, strong, and able to cause alot of damege but if pitted agenst a stronger, more solid rock there's nothing it can do to win. Water on the other hand can errode it away,or wash away the ground underneth it, or simple wash it away.
Well that's my tack on it anyway.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pittjunky
I just got through watching a 2 hour long documentery on Bruce Lee last week and you all have very valid points, but his point and meaning behind that analogy was also his personal philosophy toword martial arts. He belived, and rightly so, that most of the arts that were being tought at the time were teaching rehersed traditional moves that emphasised form and not necessarily function. The more he studied the more he realized that in a real world situation all the fancy perfect kicks in the world won't necessarily save you in an old fashioned street fight wear points ment nothing. He upset alot of people by saying, in not so many words, that 1,000 yrs of tradition and for some a life long comitment was good for show and not really much more. The style he developed is one of function v/s form. Quick, simple moves that have a very high probability of success in most situations and conditions. On the street you rarly see someone stand in 1 spot, nice and square throw a slow right punch and waight for you to do somthing. So if you're limited to a single set of moves for a few rehersed sinarios your toast. He's saying don't limit yourself to one style or another. Take what works change or modifie what doesn't, and leave the rest.
A rock may be solid, strong, and able to cause alot of damege but if pitted agenst a stronger, more solid rock there's nothing it can do to win. Water on the other hand can errode it away,or wash away the ground underneth it, or simple wash it away.
Well that's my tack on it anyway.

Very so but there is still a form of structure within JKD. The structure being your "road to discovery." Just a bunch of "chiseled down" techniques won't necisarily get you there. I'm not saying nobody can walk that path, just some organization within our journey will take us on the "freeway" instead of taking the "backroads."

:asian:

 

[gojukylie]

I believe it is important to adopt this way of thinking, however being a Goju (hard,soft) martial artist, I can see the benifits of being hard at certain times. Like all things, balance is required.:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by gojukylie
I believe it is important to adopt this way of thinking, however being a Goju (hard,soft) martial artist, I can see the benifits of being hard at certain times. Like all things, balance is required.:asian:

Actually I am a Goju practioner too but I am a nobody in the art!

:asian: