Batman VS Joker Through The Years

[MA-Caver]

Interesting gallery showing the two arch rivals through the years.
http://games.yahoo.com/photos/batma...joker-through-the-years-photo-1318457452.html
My only beef is that they didn't show the original pairing (or side by side) of the two in the original comic book appearance. Nor did they go through the trouble of finding some of those nice fan-made films that came out a while back on the net.
Still... Ledger's Joker tops them all IMO.

 

[billc]

Here is an issue for the Batman/Joker idea, as well as Superman/Lex Luthor idea. If these super villians cause as much damage as they do in their comic book worlds, are Superman and Batman irresponsible for not just killing them, say after the 10th time they escape from their life sentences in prison or the asylum?

 

[MA-Caver]

Here is an issue for the Batman/Joker idea, as well as Superman/Lex Luthor idea. If these super villians cause as much damage as they do in their comic book worlds, are Superman and Batman irresponsible for not just killing them, say after the 10th time they escape from their life sentences in prison or the asylum?

Both of the aforementioned heroes have ethics, morals, values that prohibit them from killing... as dictated by their authors.

 

[jks9199]

Here is an issue for the Batman/Joker idea, as well as Superman/Lex Luthor idea. If these super villians cause as much damage as they do in their comic book worlds, are Superman and Batman irresponsible for not just killing them, say after the 10th time they escape from their life sentences in prison or the asylum?

Or (and I think it was in Dark Knight Returns that this was brought up) -- are the superheros CAUSING the supervillians?

 

[billc]

Has anyone ever thought to total up the number of innocent people the Joker and Lex Luthor have killed? It would be interesting to know.

 

[Omar B]

One thing never touched upon is that The Joker most people know is the second Joker. Considering most people never read Joker's first appearance (or read at all for that matter) they don't know he lasted 3 issues and was killed by Batman but brought back because of curiosity. Back in Batman's gun totting, Mad Monk era type stories.

 

[MA-Caver]

Has anyone ever thought to total up the number of innocent people the Joker and Lex Luthor have killed? It would be interesting to know.

Superman: You diseased maniac, is that how you get your kicks? By the death of millions of innocent people?
Luthor: (innocently) No. By being the cause of millions of people's death.

 

[MA-Caver]

Or (and I think it was in Dark Knight Returns that this was brought up) -- are the superheros CAUSING the supervillians?

In probably what is considered the best "comic-book movie" of all time there was a lot revealed in the dialogue... for example these lines...

Bruce Wayne: Targeting me won't get their money back. I knew the mob wouldn't go down without a fight, but this is different. They crossed the line.
Alfred Pennyworth: You crossed the line first, sir. You squeezed them, you hammered them to the point of desperation. And in their desperation they turned to a man they didn't fully understand.
Bruce Wayne: Criminals aren't complicated, Alfred. Just have to figure out what he's after.
Alfred Pennyworth: With respect, sir, perhaps this is a man that *you* don't fully understand.

Alfred Pennyworth: A long time ago, I was in Burma, my friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never found anyone who traded with him. One day I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away.
Bruce Wayne: Then why steal them?
Alfred Pennyworth: Because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

The Joker: Oh, you. You just couldn't let me go, could you? This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You are truly incorruptible, aren't you? Huh? You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won't kill you because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever.
Batman: You'll be in a padded cell forever.
The Joker: Maybe we can share one. You know, they'll be doubling up, the rate this city's inhabitants are losing their minds.
Batman: This city just showed you that it's full of people ready to believe in good.
The Joker: Until their spirit breaks completely. Until they get a good look at the real Harvey Dent and all the heroic things he's done. You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fistfight with you? No. You need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey.
Batman: What did you do?
The Joker: I took Gotham's white knight and I brought him down to our level. It wasn't hard. You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push!

Batman: Then why do you want to kill me?
The Joker: [laughs] I don't want to kill you! What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, NO! No. You... you... complete me.
Batman: You're garbage who kills for money.
The Joker: Don't talk like one of them. You're not! Even if you'd like to be. To them, you're just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve.

Two-Face: It was your men, your plan!
The Joker: Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know, I just... do things. The mob has plans, the cops have plans, Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So, when I say... Ah, come here.
[takes Dent's hand into his own]
The Joker: When I say that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal, you know that I'm telling the truth. It's the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans, and look where that got you.
[Dent tries to grab the Joker]
The Joker: I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!
[Joker hands Two-Face a gun and points it at himself]
The Joker: Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!

The Joker: [holding a knife inside Gambol's mouth] Wanna know how I got these scars? My father was... a drinker. And a fiend. And one night he goes off crazier than usual. Mommy gets the kitchen knife to defend herself. He doesn't like that. Not-one-bit. So - me watching - he takes the knife to her, laughing while he does it! Turns to me, and he says, "why so serious, son?" Comes at me with the knife... "Why so serious?" He sticks the blade in my mouth... "Let's put a smile on that face!" And...
[looks sidelong at Gambol's thug, watching the whole thing in horror]
The Joker: Why so serious?

So with the Joker at least (in this version) he wasn't created by Batman, anymore than Luthor was created by Superman. They were already there, it just took extraordinary men/beings to fight them. So in a way the villains created the heros. Same with Ra's Al Ghul

Bruce Wayne: They told me there was nothing out there, nothing to fear. But the night my parents were murdered I caught a glimpse of something. I've looked for it ever since. I went around the world, searched in all the shadows. And there is something out there in the darkness, something terrifying, something that will not stop until it gets revenge... Me.

One thing never touched upon is that The Joker most people know is the second Joker. Considering most people never read Joker's first appearance (or read at all for that matter) they don't know he lasted 3 issues and was killed by Batman but brought back because of curiosity. Back in Batman's gun totting, Mad Monk era type stories.

I recall reading that issue in a compilation book. Yet the Joker obviously was such an intriguing villain they had to bring him back. Perhaps because of the chemicals that made him, rendered him immortal?

 

[ATACX GYM]

Since I am unapologetically a superhero geek of the highest order,I freakin love this thread.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Here is an issue for the Batman/Joker idea, as well as Superman/Lex Luthor idea. If these super villians cause as much damage as they do in their comic book worlds, are Superman and Batman irresponsible for not just killing them, say after the 10th time they escape from their life sentences in prison or the asylum?

Mark Millar really explored this in depth some years ago in Marvel's CIVIL WAR saga. This is really a thorny,thorny issue. Bottom line on that? We need somebody like Punisher or Moon Knight or the hardcore T'Challa the Black Panther to kill these uberbad bad guys who keep coming back and threatening the world. Murdering tens,scores,hundreds,thousands,hundreds of thousands,millions of innocents. The caped community would probably react in both defense of the lives of the bad guys but also with complete desire to corral and jail these bad guys.

Bendis and Millar hit upon a dope solution with Tony Stark,Hank Pym,and Reed Richards teaming up to craft the superprison in another dimension known as 42.

 

[MA-Caver]

How does (sheesh this is a different thread... ) Gonna post a new one based on the question.
Danged if I'll be accused of hijacking... :lol2:

 

[punisher73]

Has anyone ever thought to total up the number of innocent people the Joker and Lex Luthor have killed? It would be interesting to know.

From the Marvel universe, here is a "alternate" story that kind of addresses this question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe

Also, if you ever read the graphic novel (or regular novel) Kingdom Come it also kind of addresses some of these issues.

 

[Omar B]

Speaking of the almost unacknowledged original Joker thing. I usually ruffle some feathers at the comic shop when I tell people that Joker is the first comic book Legacy Character. Long before there was The Flash (Jay, Barry, Wally, John, etc), before Batman (Bruce, Dick, Jean Paul, Damien, Terry), The GL Corps, etc.

 

[MA-Caver]

Speaking of the almost unacknowledged original Joker thing. I usually ruffle some feathers at the comic shop when I tell people that Joker is the first comic book Legacy Character. Long before there was The Flash (Jay, Barry, Wally, John, etc), before Batman (Bruce, Dick, Jean Paul, Damien, Terry), The GL Corps, etc.

Well of course they're going to think you're whacked. They obviously haven't researched as well as you have. They most likely think since they have seen the "first" appearance of the Joker in #40 that is all they need.
Kinda like the odd look I got from an fellow affectionado when I told him that the Vision (from the Avengers) was originally a bad guy created by another bad guy (Ultron) that was created by a good guy (Hank Pym).

 

[Omar B]

Exactly. Or who's mind Vision is based upon.

Comic fans, heck, literature fans as a whole tend to be big fans of what they are currently reading, at the expense of everything else. Not knowing the full history of the character/author/style/story/etc. seems to run rampant. You hand someone a Doc Savage, they read it and think, big muscular guy, hero, genius, fortress of solitude, near invincible, they think that guy ripped off Superman!

I've always wanted to do a serious study on comics in the way I did in college for Eng Lit. Probably publish something to help people see that it's one of the few outposts or real good literature and serialized storytelling. But it is such a huge topic, even the smaller bits are volumes. I know there's easily a few books in the area of Legacy Characters and Sidekicks since their goal is to be a legacy character ... except that few ever live up to that potential. Wally went from Kid Flash to The Flash, as did Bart. Or Dick going from Robin to Nightwing to Batman then back to Nightwing. Or Damien who served as Robin for Dick, then his Dad Bruce and eventually he'll become Batman himself.

 

[MA-Caver]

Exactly. Or who's mind Vision is based upon.

Comic fans, heck, literature fans as a whole tend to be big fans of what they are currently reading, at the expense of everything else. Not knowing the full history of the character/author/style/story/etc. seems to run rampant. You hand someone a Doc Savage, they read it and think, big muscular guy, hero, genius, fortress of solitude, near invincible, they think that guy ripped off Superman!

I've always wanted to do a serious study on comics in the way I did in college for Eng Lit. Probably publish something to help people see that it's one of the few outposts or real good literature and serialized storytelling. But it is such a huge topic, even the smaller bits are volumes. I know there's easily a few books in the area of Legacy Characters and Sidekicks since their goal is to be a legacy character ... except that few ever live up to that potential. Wally went from Kid Flash to The Flash, as did Bart. Or Dick going from Robin to Nightwing to Batman then back to Nightwing. Or Damien who served as Robin for Dick, then his Dad Bruce and eventually he'll become Batman himself.

Yeah, I'm feeling that a lot of people don't realize that Bruce Wayne's father was a Batman before Bruce. At least I think that's right? But now-a-days it seems that a lot of people are trying to re-write the lore of various characters to their own visions and I wonder... is that wrong?

 

[Omar B]

Thomas Wayne was never Batman in regular continuity. He was A Batman in the timeline that resulted from The Flash was timetraveling again. I'm sure the entire Flashpoint storyline thing will be out in trade. I don't know what's worse, Flashpoint, or the resultant new DC universe that came from it.

 

[punisher73]

Yeah, I'm feeling that a lot of people don't realize that Bruce Wayne's father was a Batman before Bruce. At least I think that's right? But now-a-days it seems that a lot of people are trying to re-write the lore of various characters to their own visions and I wonder... is that wrong?

Dr. Wayne was not a masked hero. The comics at some point discuss that the Wayne who built Wayne manor used it as a stopping point for the underground railroad and utilized the caves that way before they became the batcave. But, this would have been a later addition to the story. Also, the movie has Bruce and his parents leaving an opera and getting scared. The version I first remember was that they were actually leaving the movie "Mask of Zorro". I don't know if that was the original or again a later add-on to point the inspiration or draw the parrellel.

 

[Omar B]

The original was Zorro. It helps explain his inspiration (including uniform, mask, how he operates). Yeah, Bob Kane used Zorro a lot in the inspiration and put that in the story to show it.