Bassai

[TallAdam85]

How many styles have the form Bassai in there style


I am just wondering cause I think this is the forms that is used among the most styles

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Most Okinawan Shuri-Te styles have it. Also Tang Soo Do has it believe it is called Passai. Dillman does a Tomari verision of it.
Bob :asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

learned it in my first tkd school and have seen it in a few other styles

 

[progressivetactics]

we teach 2 of them in our TSD group. A lesser and greater.
I heard there were actually 3 in TSD, so far, only 1 club I have ever heard of has taught 3 of them.

 

[kenmpoka]

There are many version of this kata in existance. Most Shuri and Tomari schools teach some version of this forms. The major version are:

1-Matsumura Passai (known to be the oldest one)
2-Tawada Passai
3-Itosu Passai (Dai-Sho)
4-Ishimine Passai
5-Teruya Passai
6-Matsumora Passai
7-Oyadomari Passai
8-Sekiryu Passai
9-Ichigina Passai
10-Motobu Passai
11-Tomari Passai
12-Kyan Passai
13-Funakoshi Bassai Dai-Sho
14-Chibana Passai
15-Azato Passai
16-Oshiro Passai
17-Shorinji Ryu- Hisataka Bassai
and the list goes on. There are also the Korean "Basahee" versions that are taken after the Funakoshi's, with some minor changes to fit their kicking strategies.

 

[Shuri-te]

While I am not familiar with many of the versions referred to by Peter, I am familiar with several. Below is a discussion of the (B)Passai practiced by schools that descend Matsumura's two most prominent students, Chotoku Kyan and Anko Itosu.

Kyan learned his Passai from Oyodamari, and taught it to his students. It is found in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (Shoshin Nagamine), Seibukan (Zenryo Shimabukuro), Shobayashi Shorin Ryu (Eizo Shimubukuro), and Shorinji Ryu (Joen Nakazato). However, it is not part of Tatsuo Shimabuku's Isshin Ryu system.

Itosu's taught several versions of Passai to his students. In addition to the Matsumura version, Itosu is credited with developing two new versions. He may have taught others as well. Three of his students (Funakoshi, Mabuni and Toyama) wound up in Japan and renamed these kata Bassai. The two Itosu developed kata are called Bassai Dai and Sho in the systems that descend from these masters (Shotokan, Shito Ryu, and Shudokan, respectively.) Although Mabuni's system also kept the Matsumura version, Funakoshi and Toyama did not include this kata in their systems. While there are differences in the stances and some hand movements in these kata, the Bassai Dai and Sho of these systems follow the same general pattern.

Two other Itosu students that founded popular systems in Okinawa are Chosen Chibana (Kobayashi Shorin Ryu) and Shigeru Nakamura (Okinawa Kempo). In Chibana's system, Matsumura's Passai is known as Passai Dai, and the Bassai Dai, noted above, is called Passai Sho. The Bassai Sho, noted above, is found in the Kobayashi offshoot called Shidokan, founded by Katsuya Miyahira. Prior to training with Chibana, Miyahira studied with another prominent student of Itosu named Gusukuma (aka Shinpan Shiroma) where he learned this other Itosu version. In Shidokan it is referred to as Gusukuma Passai.

In Shimabukuro's Seibukan, this other Itosu Passai is also found. Zenryo Shimabukuro was a good friend of Chozo Nakama, another student of Itosu who was affiliated with Chibana. Nakama taught Shimabukuro this version of Passai, which in the Seibukan system is called Passai Gua. (Nakama also taught Shimabukuro the Pinans as well as Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan.)

Shigeru Nakamura, as mentioned above, another of Itosu's prominent students, has a Passai version that would best be described as in the Oyodamari family. Although Nakamura did train intermittently with Itosu, he trained more extensively with Itosu's two top students, Yabu Kentsu and Chomo Hanashiro. He also trained under Shinkichi Kunioshi. I am not familiar with a reference that states from which master Nakamura's Passai originates.

Videos of (B)Passai are commercially available for the following systems:
-Matsubayashi (Passai)
-Seibukan (Passai)
-Shoboyashi Shorin Ryu (Passai)
-Shotokan (Bassai Dai and Sho)
-Shito Ryu (Bassai Dai and Sho)
-Kobayashi-Shorinkan (Passai Dai and Sho)
-Okinawa Kempo (Passai)

The Matsubayashi and Shotokan versions are also available on the web.

 

[fissure]

Bassai Dai is taught in Tae Kwon Do schools that still incorporate Shotokan kata into their training. It goes by the name Bal Sek.Basically the same as JKA Shotokan version, except has crecent kicks with the double punches and a different trapping motion at the end of the first sequence of knife hand blocks.

 

[karatekid1975]

My school still teaches it. We do both WTF TKD forms and the Moo Duk Kwan forms (which includes Bassai).

 

[Shuri-te]

More on the Passai discussion.

In many Shotokan systems, there is a single Bassai, with no Dai or Sho as part of the name. There was a period when Funakoshi taught a more complete Itosu curriculum that included both Itosu versions. Mabuni did this as well in Shito Ryu. But eventually, Funakoshi came to the conclusion that the practice of all these kata just did not make sense, and he pared back significantly. His final curriculum found in "KarateDo Kyohan" dropped many Itosu kata (Kusanku Sho, Gojushiho Sho and Dai, Rohai (Meikyo), Itosu Rohai 1-3, Wankan (Matsukaze), Chintei, Jiin, and Bassai Sho). This final syllabus also excluded two Aragaki kata (Nijushiho and Unsu) as well. (It is not clear whether the third Aragaki kata, Sochin, found in Shito Ryu was also taught by Funakoshi. The modern Sochin in Shotokan bears no resemblance to the Shito Ryu version).

If one compares the four prominent forms of the kata (Matsumura, Oyodamari, Itosu Sho and Dai), the only two that have some true similarity of hand and foot patterns are the Oyodamari and the Itosu Passai Dai. And here, there are as many differences as there are similarities. One can compare them by looking at the following web resources:

Matsubayashi (Oyodamari) - http://www.shorinryu.dk/html/Framese_index.htm
Shotokan (Itosu's Passai Dai) - http://ase.tufts.edu/karate/katavideos.html

The other two major Passai kata, Matsumura and Itosu Passai Sho have no real relation other than they retain the same name, and share, at best, a small handful of similar movements. Itosu's Passai Sho (Shotokan version) can be found on-line at the Shotokan link noted above. Unfortunately it seems that the Kobayashi version of Matsumura's Passai has been taken off-line. For a couple of years, there had been a video performed by Michiko Onaga of Shinjinbukan which descends from Yuchoku Higa, one of Chibana's top four students. (The others being Miyahira, Nakazato and Nakama referenced in my earlier post.) The video of Ms. Onaga was referenced on Jimmy Mora's page (http://www.shinjinbukan.com/Michiko.htm). However the link to video ("click to see demo") is currently inactive. The page includes Mr. Mora's email so if you want to try to get a copy of the on-line video, he might be able to give you a working link or tell you when it should be active.

The net of this is that when considering these four versions of Passai, they really have little in common. There is similarity in the embusen (floor patterns) as all work primarily front to rear and back, with a few movements to the side and on angles. But in actuality, all should be considered different kata as they have so little in common.

One final note. In Japan, in order to standardize the way kata is performed in tournaments, 8 Shitei kata were introduced, 2 each from the four major Japanese systems (Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Goju Ryu and Shito Ryu.) I have little involvement with tournaments, so my knowledge here is very sketchy, but is my understanding that the initial plan was that if you perform one of these eight kata, it is supposed to be done the way the Shitei kata is done, not in the way of your particular style.

The Shitei version of Bassai Dai is the Shito Ryu version. It can be found at USA National KarateDo Federation's website: www.usankf.org. Go to training, then videowerks, then kata, then Basai Dai. There is both a front and back view, as well as bunkai (lousy bunkai in IMO). These NKF videos are of exceptional quality. The Bassai Dai kata is performed by one of the Hasegawa brothers, both of whom are top kata champions in Japan.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Shuri-te
More on the Passai discussion.

In many Shotokan systems, there is a single Bassai, with no Dai or Sho as part of the name. There was a period when Funakoshi taught a more complete Itosu curriculum that included both Itosu versions. Mabuni did this as well in Shito Ryu. But eventually, Funakoshi came to the conclusion that the practice of all these kata just did not make sense, and he pared back significantly. His final curriculum found in "KarateDo Kyohan" dropped many Itosu kata (Kusanku Sho, Gojushiho Sho and Dai, Rohai (Meikyo), Itosu Rohai 1-3, Wankan (Matsukaze), Chintei, Jiin, and Bassai Sho). This final syllabus also excluded two Aragaki kata (Nijushiho and Unsu) as well. (It is not clear whether the third Aragaki kata, Sochin, found in Shito Ryu was also taught by Funakoshi. The modern Sochin in Shotokan bears no resemblance to the Shito Ryu version).

If one compares the four prominent forms of the kata (Matsumura, Oyodamari, Itosu Sho and Dai), the only two that have some true similarity of hand and foot patterns are the Oyodamari and the Itosu Passai Dai. And here, there are as many differences as there are similarities. One can compare them by looking at the following web resources:

Matsubayashi (Oyodamari) - http://www.shorinryu.dk/html/Framese_index.htm
Shotokan (Itosu's Passai Dai) - http://ase.tufts.edu/karate/katavideos.html

The other two major Passai kata, Matsumura and Itosu Passai Sho have no real relation other than they retain the same name, and share, at best, a small handful of similar movements. Itosu's Passai Sho (Shotokan version) can be found on-line at the Shotokan link noted above. Unfortunately it seems that the Kobayashi version of Matsumura's Passai has been taken off-line. For a couple of years, there had been a video performed by Michiko Onaga of Shinjinbukan which descends from Yuchoku Higa, one of Chibana's top four students. (The others being Miyahira, Nakazato and Nakama referenced in my earlier post.) The video of Ms. Onaga was referenced on Jimmy Mora's page (http://www.shinjinbukan.com/Michiko.htm). However the link to video ("click to see demo") is currently inactive. The page includes Mr. Mora's email so if you want to try to get a copy of the on-line video, he might be able to give you a working link or tell you when it should be active.

The net of this is that when considering these four versions of Passai, they really have little in common. There is similarity in the embusen (floor patterns) as all work primarily front to rear and back, with a few movements to the side and on angles. But in actuality, all should be considered different kata as they have so little in common.

One final note. In Japan, in order to standardize the way kata is performed in tournaments, 8 Shitei kata were introduced, 2 each from the four major Japanese systems (Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Goju Ryu and Shito Ryu.) I have little involvement with tournaments, so my knowledge here is very sketchy, but is my understanding that the initial plan was that if you perform one of these eight kata, it is supposed to be done the way the Shitei kata is done, not in the way of your particular style.

The Shitei version of Bassai Dai is the Shito Ryu version. It can be found at USA National KarateDo Federation's website: www.usankf.org. Go to training, then videowerks, then kata, then Basai Dai. There is both a front and back view, as well as bunkai (lousy bunkai in IMO). These NKF videos are of exceptional quality. The Bassai Dai kata is performed by one of the Hasegawa brothers, both of whom are top kata champions in Japan.

Actually Shurite,
Funakoshi came to the mainland with 15 kata only and later on added his three Taikyoku kata that he devised with his son Gico Funakoshi and Ten No kata. After the war more forms were introduced to the curriculum. Again Gico and a few seniors were sent to Mabuni sensei to learn such Kata as Bassai Sho, Kanku sho, Jiin, Nijushiho, Gojushihos and Unsu and others such as Sochin, Wankan Tomari(version) were adopted and rearranged from other sources by Gico. Itosu Rohai II & III were combined to form Meikyo. Some changes were made to these forms to fit the shotokan strategies. The originals were ; 5 Heian (pinan), 3 Tekki (naihanchi), Enpi(wansu), jutte, Jion, Gankaku (chinto), Hangetsu (seisan), Bassai, Kanku (Kwanku), Ten no kata (funakoshi's). In 1948 disciples from Keio, waseda and takushoku university met with Mr. Funakoshi at waseda and standardized and formulized the new introduced kata that most JKA factions use today. To this day Oshima Sensei (Shotokan karate of America) uses the orginal 15 + 3 Taikyoku Kata and Ten no Kata. The ranking stops at Godan (highest rank ever awarded by O-Sensei and no color belt system. Only white, Brown and black. There are also some minor differences in kata tempo and execution.

Salute.

 

[Shuri-te]

Kenmpoka,

Thank you for the input. I would like to add a clarification and some more information, so please excuse me for delving into a passion of mine, the historical roots of karate.

I stated:

There was a period when Funakoshi taught a more complete Itosu curriculum that included both Itosu versions. Mabuni did this as well in Shito Ryu. But eventually, Funakoshi came to the conclusion that the practice of all these kata just did not make sense, and he pared back significantly.

You replied:

Funakoshi came to the mainland with 15 kata only and later on added his three Taikyoku kata that he devised with his son Gico Funakoshi and Ten No kata. After the war more forms were introduced to the curriculum. Again Gico and a few seniors were sent to Mabuni sensei to learn such Kata as Bassai Sho, Kanku sho, Jiin, Nijushiho, Gojushihos and Unsu and others such as Sochin, Wankan Tomari(version) were adopted and rearranged from other sources by Gico. Itosu Rohai II & III were combined to form Meikyo.

It was not my intention to speculate on which kata Funakoshi brought from Okinawa to Japan. While there are numerous sources that describe the 15 you mention (Egami, and others), we will probably never truly know just what knowledge he had in the early 1920s when he moved to Tokyo. There are however, several historical sources that indicate that while in Japan, Funakoshi practiced and taught kata that were not part of this original 15. Where and when he learned them is unclear, though there has been plenty of speculation that he learned some or all from Mabuni.

Patrick McCarthy and others have written on this subject. In McCarthy's analysis, http://seinenkai.com/art-mutsu1.html, he provides several references to Funakoshi performing and teaching some of these kata that were not part of his initial curriculum. McCarthy states:

"In the "Fifty Year Anniversary" publication of "Keio University Karate Club", it describes Funakoshi teaching Gojushiho 1 Feb. 1929 and his assistant, Ohtsuka Hironori, teaching Unsu (10 May) the year before. If this is true, then it is apparent that Funakoshi Sensei brought more than 15 kata with him from Okinawa. (However, there's also one more issue to consider which supports the rumor he learned the kata from Mabuni .PM)"

You mentioned that Funakoshi sent his students to Mabuni to learn. While there were undoubtedly trips taken just by his students, it is probable that Funakoshi and Mabuni met as well. First, there is historical evidence in photographs. It is also likely that with so few Okinawans living in Japan, Funakoshi and Mabuni might have enjoyed spending time with each other. By the time Mabuni arrived in Osaka around 1927, he had probably known Funakoshi for nearly 25 years. It is almost certain that the two had trained together under Itosu in the very early part of the century. (One source says Mabuni didn't miss a single day's training with Itosu from 1902, when he started, until 1909. There is even a picture reportedly of the Itosu, Funakoshi and Mabuni. http://seishinkaiturkey.s5.com/Eng/History/karatehistory.htm)

Perhaps more important in the development of their relationship is their heavy involvement in the groups that were active in promoting karate in Okinawa prior to Funakoshi's departure for Tokyo. Assuming they spent time together in Japan, it is probable that Funakoshi might well have learned kata from Mabuni. In his text Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts Volume 2, Patrick McCarthy discusses Mabuni's reknowned knowledge of Okinawan kata. It would be surprising to me indeed if these two great pioneers of karate didn't share a great deal in the art they both so cherished and spent their lives propogating.

But I think that some have taken this argument too far. There have been claims that Mabuni taught Funakoshi the Pinans. But in Nagamine's text, Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters, he puts this one to rest when he states that Funakoshi was teaching Naihanchi and Pinans in his elementary school, probably around 1917.

While there seems to be ample evidence that Funakoshi might have learned kata from Mabuni, there is also the likelihood that he might have known more than the 15 mentioned that he brought to Japan in the early 1920s. There are sources that state that Funakoshi himself trained with Aragaki, who had taught Mabuni the kata Nijushiho, Unsu and Sochin. (One source is: http://www.shitokai.com/aragaki.html.) And although I do not have My Way of Life with me at the moment, it is my recollection that Funakoshi states in that text that he studied with Aragaki. He most certainly states that Itosu brought him to many masters to learn, and it is certainly conceivable that he learned kata in the process.

One last point. In any discussion of what kata Funakoshi brought to Japan versus what he included in the Master Text, it is clear that there is a whole series of kata missing. Funakoshi certainly knew kobudo kata and there is evidence in the historical record that he taught at least some kobudo when he was younger. (e.g. Gochoku Chitose states he learned bojutsu from Funakoshi while in grade school. - http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/karate/bio.html) But as he aged, Funakoshi apparently decided to stop teaching kobudo and focus on empty-hand kata.

I do confess to a speculation in my original statement above regarding what Funakoshi taught. I have no direct knowledge that he taught Bassai Sho. Based on my reading of the historical record, some of which I have shared above, it has been my assumption that Funakoshi taught much beyond the original 15 kata. Whether or not he actually taught Bassai Sho will probably never be known. I was typing fast when I wrote that sentence, and in retrospect I should have said "There was a period when Funakoshi taught a more complete Itosu curriculm that probably included both Itosu versions." Mea culpa on the sloppy scholarship. But there is no doubt that Bassai Sho was part of the curriculum being taught in Funakoshi's system prior to 1952 when Mabuni died. That is why it has survived as part of the JKA syllabus.

I am not sure that there is any historical record as to who Funakoshi learned kata from. We know he studied intensively with Azato and Itosu, and spent some time studying under other masters, including Matsumura. But I am not aware that he has documented which kata he learned from which masters. There is some evidence that he might have learned Naihanchi under Itosu (ten years studying, no less) but I am not sure what other historical sources there are for the rest of Funakoshi's curriculum. If anyone knows of a reference, I would be grateful if they would share it.

 

[TallAdam85]

thanks for all the good replys guys i knew the form was big but did not know it was that well known

 

[kenmpoka]

Shurite,

By 1952, all kata mentioned by you and I were part of the syllabus of shotokan. Some changes were made to the forms for the sake of clarity of bunkai and strategy.
I can almost assure you that kata like Sochin, Wankan, Bassai-sho, Kanku-sho, Gojushiho and unsu were not part of his early syllabus (1922-25). They were added later on. Ohtsuka did not learn these from Funakoshi. As a matter of fact most advance forms were/are not part of Wado's latest syllabus. If he had they would be included in his kata canon. That is why Mabuni was so much popular when it came to kata. Konishi and Ohtsuka both sought Mabuni after studying with Funakoshi. Of course Mabuni made a lot of changes to his forms as well and not all are in original form, but that is for another thread. Funakoshi and Mabuni shared a lot history and they were friends, True. He even learned a thing or two from Mabuni. Mabuni was the longest student of Itosu and most knowledgable in Kata. Funakoshi was chosen to bring karate to japan because of his education and teaching status. They were many more knowlegable.(not taking anything away from him) Funakoshi did know a Rohai version and that version is still taught by Shotokai.

My first teacher was Oshima Sensei, the man who brought shotokan to America. He is the translator of "Kyohan", personal student of Funakoshi in his later years and was awarded his last rank by himself. My second teacher started studying under Funakoshi when he was fifteen years of age (he is now 73), was the Co-Founder of JKA and permanent board member. Dean of instruction and most senior alive. Guess who?

I do appreciate your passion. Knowledge is a beautiful thing.

Respectfully,

P.S. Funakoshi's early Kobudo mostly came from Taira Shinken when he was studying and exchanging information with Funakoshi in the early years. He even taught karate in Okinawa under the banner of Funakoshi-Ryu. According to my teacher, Funakoshi knew one or two Bo kata and some Sai kihon. That is all.

 

[Shuri-te]

Kenmpoka said:

My second teacher started studying under Funakoshi when he was fifteen years of age (he is now 73), was the Co-Founder of JKA and permanent board member. Dean of instruction and most senior alive. Guess who?

Wow, you really stumped me. I would have guessed from your location that you studied under Nishiyama, since he began studying with Funakoshi at 15, and I do believe he is the oldest of the original founders. However, all the sources I have found, including what I would consider an authorized web site (http://www.itkf.org/) show that he was born in 1928, so that would make him either 74 or 75. Okazaki was born in 1931, and he is on the East coast and began training with Funakoshi when he was 16. (If it is Nishiyama, as I suspect, you may know Sensei Smaby. He has been to my dojo at Cornell on two occasions.)

When it comes to board members of the JKA, the evolution of the organization is enough to make one's head swim. Here are three posts on the history and organization, the last of which is from on Oshima student.
http://www.ijka.co.uk/politica.htm
http://www.shotokanworld.com/intlorg.htm
http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/interviews/wuko.html

One last clarification: You said:

Mabuni was the longest student of Itosu and most knowledgable in Kata.

This might have been true in Japan, but not in Okinawa until after 1945, when Chomo Hanashiro perished in the Battle of Okinawa. Hanashiro was born in 1869 (Mabuni twenty years later) and studied under Matsumura. He and Yabu Kentsu (died 1937) were considered Itosu's senior students. Interestingly, Hanashiro traveled to Tokyo and taught there for a period as well. There is even a system that descends from one of his students there called Sakugawa Koshiki Shorinjiryu Karatedo. Interestingly, the kata are more like Shotokan with deep stances, and I would be greatly surprised if Hanashiro actually taught all the kata the way they are performed today. (http://www.wiredaemons.com/shorinji/index.html)

You mentioned, "Of course Mabuni made a lot of changes to his forms as well and not all are in original form, but that is for another thread." I will start one on the karate forum shortly. When it comes to changes in kata, we are really entering a world of speculation. It is pretty difficult to tell what the "old" way was when every system has such different kata. Again this gets to the issue of Funakoshi's kata. We know he learned a great deal from Azato. Which of the kata are Azato's and which are Itosu's. Regarding Itosu's kata, when one looks at the current lineages of his students, with few exception's (Naihanchi e.g.) there is a wide variety of movements for any given kata.

 

[kenmpoka]

Shurite,

your guess was right and he is actually couple of years older than I thought. Mr. Oshima is actually couple of years younger.

Though Hanashiro and Yabu were older and obviously more senior than Mabuni but none had the knowledge Mabuni had in Kata.

Off to work, talk you later.

 

[Shuri-te]

Kenmpoka,

Thank you for this fruitful exchange. I am sure we will have much to share in the future.

I have a former student in Oshima's system in Washington D.C. and he has given me some really interesting information.

Another thread.

Thanks again.