"Bad" TKD" looks pretty good to me!

[skribs]

Hi Earl, Yes, I think you posted that one before....and it's one thing I don't like about TKID schools. They are often close minded.

Example: since you are ITF as I recall..... I am an older slower guy and I was sparring a younger female master in the WT-style school. I wasn't about to use power to "win" and be a jerk. But nevertheless, she said dismissively, "I can see everything you are doing. You are telegraphing."

So I went into my memory banks to think of something unusual, and landed a twist kick to the body. Her comment was "that's not a kick". Nevertheless, the other youth black belts asked what it was and I explained it was a twist kick, more common in ITF TKD than WT TKD.

The school I recently left had a lot of weird stuff because of the way they do things. For example, the only times they train punches are:

1. Horse stance punches as a warmup
2. Whenever a punch comes up in forms
3. At the advanced level, using a punch as a counter-attack to your opponent's kick

So I'm sparring with this red belt, I do my favorite basic sparring combo of right leg kick to engage, 1-2 punch to the body, left leg kick to disengage. This red belt I'm sparring gets upset, "I didn't kick. You're not supposed to punch."

I refrained from punching for the rest of the day. They do have a lot of weird rules at this school (for example, both fighters can't have a knee up at the same time, to avoid knocking knees), so I figured this may be another weird rule. Afterwards asked one of the Masters, she said he was just confused because of the way they taught counterattacks.

 

[HighKick]

I saw this video yesterday and was quite impressed by the some of the kicking (first 4 seconds for example, and from 21:20 - 22:20).

Yet the comments are overwhelmingly negative.

Am I way off by thinking this has some pretty darn good martial arts? Not everyone is as talented as the best guy, but still....I'd be happy to see that demo.

I have watched this video several times. It is fantastic. I put zero stock into the comments of people who cannot appreciate the technique and control of those kicks. You do not see that kind of skill every day, or even every decade.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

So I'm sparring with this red belt, I do my favorite basic sparring combo of right leg kick to engage, 1-2 punch to the body, left leg kick to disengage. This red belt I'm sparring gets upset, "I didn't kick. You're not supposed to punch."

I don't know whether you saw UFC291, or perhaps the main event highlight of the big KO kick, but do you also like the other order of a 1-2 punch + right-leg kick?

I've always liked it, but it's hard to incorporate in a WT ruleset (based on my fun school-sparring - I'm not a competitor).

Please see from 1:00 - 1:45.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't know whether you saw UFC291, or perhaps the main event highlight of the big KO kick, but do you also like the other order of a 1-2 punch + right-leg kick?

I've always liked it, but it's hard to incorporate in a WT ruleset (based on my fun school-sparring - I'm not a competitor).

It's a great combo. In order to make it work with the silly WT rule set, you have no choice but to throw the punches at the body. Even then, many competitors will ignore them, because it is extremely difficult to score with punches to the body.

In the rest of the world, it works great. Or you can throw the punches high to get them to raise their guard and follow up with the same roundhouse, but targeting the ribs.

If you've got a good inside crescent kick (which many people have difficulty throwing with power), you can follow up with that, targeting the back of the head. It's difficult to block, because much of the kicks movement is outside their field of vision. In a points match, the power is less important. You can leave the right hand extended for just a tick, entangling their left arm and preventing it from being used to block. They may be able to duck under it, but that leaves them exposed to additional attacks.

 

[skribs]

I don't know whether you saw UFC291, or perhaps the main event highlight of the big KO kick, but do you also like the other order of a 1-2 punch + right-leg kick?

I've always liked it, but it's hard to incorporate in a WT ruleset (based on my fun school-sparring - I'm not a competitor).

Please see from 1:00 - 1:45.

I think there are two main ways that punches help align your body for a kick. A right-hand punch angles your body for a faster right leg kick. A left-hand punch loads your body for a stronger right-leg kick.

In Muay Thai, my coach has us drill the 1-2 where the 2 misses left, and then grabs our opponent's head to pull into the kick.

 

[marvin8]

I think there are two main ways that punches help align your body for a kick. A right-hand punch angles your body for a faster right leg kick. A left-hand punch loads your body for a stronger right-leg kick.

In Muay Thai, my coach has us drill the 1-2 where the 2 misses left, and then grabs our opponent's head to pull into the kick.

In Brasil vs Mann, Brasil:

1. feints left hook to lure Mann to evade left 2. senses for Mann to double weight 3. changes while Mann's weight is on the back foot 5. issues roundhouse head kick KO with instep:

In Usman vs. Edwards 2, Edwards:

1. feints right jab, left cross to lure Usman to evade right 2. senses for Usman to double weight 3. changes while Usman's weight is on the back foot 5. issues left roundhouse head kick KO with lower shin:

 

[Earl Weiss]

Jab- Cross - Roundhouse: This is "Sparring Combination D" which is labelled as such because it is the 4th one I teach.

 

[skribs]

Jab- Cross - Roundhouse: This is "Sparring Combination D" which is labelled as such because it is the 4th one I teach.

One thing I'm trying to get away from when I build my own curriculum is rote memorized combinations. I feel the more you rote memorize, the less creativity offered to both the student and teacher.

 

[wab25]

One thing I'm trying to get away from when I build my own curriculum is rote memorized combinations. I feel the more you rote memorize, the less creativity offered to both the student and teacher.

This is where the idea of "systems" comes into play. Jab -> Cross -> Roundhouse is a "system." Look it is a flow chart, a simple one, but still a flow chart. It even has a goal.... land the head kick.

Teaching this "system" to your students gives them something that is proven to work.... it is proven to be a high probability combo. It means you are giving your students something that has a good chance of working. The better they get at understanding this "system" and what makes it work, the easier it will be for them to create their own combo that works.

We all have the same dictionary.... some of us write better than others. Heck, some people make a lot of money writing... using the same dictionary I have. Learning usage patterns and rules of grammar make one more effective with using the set of words. Even if you are breaking the rules.... Good writers do this. But, the good writers know the rules, understand the effect of the rules and also understand how to break the rules to get the effect they want. They don't do this by accident.

 

[marvin8]

This is where the idea of "systems" comes into play. Jab -> Cross -> Roundhouse is a "system." Look it is a flow chart, a simple one, but still a flow chart. It even has a goal.... land the head kick.

Teaching this "system" to your students gives them something that is proven to work.... it is proven to be a high probability combo. It means you are giving your students something that has a good chance of working. The better they get at understanding this "system" and what makes it work, the easier it will be for them to create their own combo that works.

Yes. You don't want to issue a head kick from a 50/50 position. You want to be in an advantageous position. "Hit and don't get hit" or "position before submission." You can teach a process without techniques, which can then be followed with different techniques. A process of skills that can be changed...

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

 

[skribs]

This is where the idea of "systems" comes into play. Jab -> Cross -> Roundhouse is a "system." Look it is a flow chart, a simple one, but still a flow chart. It even has a goal.... land the head kick.

Teaching this "system" to your students gives them something that is proven to work.... it is proven to be a high probability combo. It means you are giving your students something that has a good chance of working. The better they get at understanding this "system" and what makes it work, the easier it will be for them to create their own combo that works.

We all have the same dictionary.... some of us write better than others. Heck, some people make a lot of money writing... using the same dictionary I have. Learning usage patterns and rules of grammar make one more effective with using the set of words. Even if you are breaking the rules.... Good writers do this. But, the good writers know the rules, understand the effect of the rules and also understand how to break the rules to get the effect they want. They don't do this by accident.

My problem isn't with the technique, but when techniques and combos are rote memorized.

I 100% plan to do jab-cross-roundhouse combos in my class. I just expect students to learn the jab, cross, and roundhouse, and why that combo works, instead of memorize that "Kicking #2" means jab-cross-roundhouse.

My experience at my previous school is that we had a bunch of memorized combos. And 90% of our striking training was going through those combos for rote memorization and minor technical correction. 0% was spent on the "why". Over the course of our kicking #1-8, you would demonstrate a front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, back kick, hook kick, spinning hook kick, axe kick, and tornado kick. All in rote memorized combinations.

I'd rather take some days and go through the list of kicks. Other days take a front kick and focus on it. What are different variants of a front kick and how would you use each? What are various situations you might use a front kick? If a front kick is your end goal, how can you set it up?

Recently, in Muay Thai class, I've learned what I'm calling an S kick. It's a front kick that travels like a roundhouse kick until it's flicked out at the last minute. This is a new kick for me. If I have a rote memorized system, it would be difficult to bring this to my class. But if I just teach the moves, then I could work on that kick for a month or so, and then go into my class and say, "We're doing a new variant of the front kick today: the S kick."

 

[Doc]

I saw this video yesterday and was quite impressed by the some of the kicking (first 4 seconds for example, and from 21:20 - 22:20).

Yet the comments are overwhelmingly negative.

Am I way off by thinking this has some pretty darn good martial arts? Not everyone is as talented as the best guy, but still....I'd be happy to see that demo.

TKD was created as a "national kicking sport" in the fifties for Korea. In context, it makes sense however don't confuse the activity with fighting or self-defense philosophically. Their identity is built around kicking and they will always find a reason to stick to their identity and in demos are very good at it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Jab- Cross - Roundhouse: This is "Sparring Combination D" which is labelled as such because it is the 4th one I teach.

I have always wonder, if jab-cross-roundhouse is so useful, why it doesn't exist in most of the MA form? Did those form creators didn't notice it?

In another thread, I mentioned that we should train drill (such as jab-cross-roundhouse). We should not train form. If I can find 20 of those combos that I believe to have great value, I should spend my training time on those drills. I won't have time to train my traditional form anymore.

Am I the only person who feel this is the right way to train in MT?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have always wonder, if jab-cross-roundhouse is so useful, why it doesn't exist in most of the MA form? Did those form creators didn't notice it?

It's there. It's one of those combos that you will eventually develop on your own if you learn how to put combination together. Your martial arts teacher will teach you Jab, Cross (reverse punch), and kick. If the student is training to use these techniques then the student will learn on his own, Jab, Cross, Kick combo.

Combos I learned on my own without a teacher.

1. Jab+Cross+ side kick
2. Jab+Cross+ front kick
3. Jab+Cross+ round house
4. Jab+Cross+ Knee
5. Jab+Cross+ flying knee
6. Jab+Cross+ fake front kick to downward side kick
7. Jab+Cross+ sweep
8. Jab+Cross+ fake knee to downward side kick
9. Jab+Cross+ forward switch kick

No one taught me these combinations. One you learn the techniques and the natural movement, then it's possible to use a follow up technique to create combinations.

Anyone who trains kung fu shadow boxing with me will learn these combinations on their own too. The more the body is familiar with the movements and techniques, The easier it will be able to create combinations on the fly be it in practice or in a real fight. This is why I think we don't specifically see certain combos in some Traditional Martial Arts. Some things naturally develop as combinations.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Combos I learned on my own without a teacher.

1. Jab+Cross+ ...

You can also replace jab-cross with

1. jab-hook
2. jab-uppercut
3. jab-overhand
4. hook-hook
5. hook-cross
6. hook- uppercut
7. hook-overhand
- ...

7 x 9 = 63.

The day you start to train MA this way, how can you find time to train your form?

 

[JowGaWolf]

In another thread, I mentioned that we should train drill (such as jab-cross-roundhouse).

I wouldn't drill these combinations unless the focus is on fighting and then actually trying them in sparring to see if the combination of strikes are effective. There are some combinations that aren't good. I wouldn't drill a combination specifically for the sake of drilling a combinations. I have videos of students that I was training with on sparring day and some have cool looking combinations but had very little practical value.

I don't think it's much of a big deal if you are using basic punches like what is found in boxing. But as soon as you get in to the some of the intermediate and advance striking techniques in kung fu, the risk of creating a useless combo greatly increases. One student I was teaching had a difficulty of flowing strikes in the context of fighting. Everytime he linked a combination, it look more like he was trying to create a form.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can also replace jab-cross with

- jab-hook
- jab-uppercut
- jab-overhand
- hook-hook
- hook-cross
- hook- uppercut
- hook-overhand
- ...

The day you start to train MA this way, how can you find time to train your form?

There is always time to train a form. Any time that I don't train a form, it's by choice and not because I don't have enough time. The goal should not be to train everything at one time. Training should always include.

1. Train something basic
2. Train something that you are good at
3. Train something that you are bad at
4. Condition
5. Maintenance training.

If you have forms then you will use #5 as to train them. You can train all of the form or just part of the form. It just depends on how long the form is.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the risk of creating a useless combo greatly increases.

It should not take too much testing time to verify some combos don't make sense.

It's 21st century. We should use computer to generate all possible combos. Throw away those bad combos and keep those good combos.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Combos I learned on my own without a teacher.

1. Jab+Cross+ side kick

I believe this is the striker's approach. From a wrestler approach, it makes more sense to use

- kick to enter the punching range.
- punch to enter the clinch range.
- clinch to throw.

So, I may put kick as the 1st move instead.

- front kick, jab, arm wrap, head lock, front cut.
- sweep, arm block, waist wrap, hip throw.
- ...

Now you have a set of combos for striker. You also have a set of combos for wrestler. You will find out that the amount of time that you can train traditional forms has be reduced.

 

[marvin8]

In another thread, I mentioned that we should train drill (such as jab-cross-roundhouse). We should not train form. If I can find 20 of those combos that I believe to have great value, I should spend my training time on those drills. I won't have time to train my traditional form anymore.

Am I the only person who feel this is the right way to train in MT?

At 2:14, Lyoto Machida feels the same on kata..