Attributes VS Technique Training

[IFAJKD]

One of the things that stands JKDers apart from others is how we train. We have a focus on attribute development rather than technique. Attributes such as speed, power timing, distance, but also foot work, (bladed motion) line familurization, sensitivity, neuro-muscular development, spatial awareness. The focus on functionality over form and diversity in all ranges over having a range "home" defines who JKDers are. I have watched many students with little training (1 year) who I would put in a fight with many many BB and they will thrive. It is because of attribute training. What I would like to know is your individual experience in your systems to develop functionality and attributes. In doing so this helps keep my mind open
Thanks

 

[Icepick]

When I think of attribute training in Modern Arnis, the many drills pop into mind. I've done a lot of sinawali, sumbrada, etc., and once you translate them to open hand, knife, pencil or whatever, you realize you've developed a tremendous amount of hand speed and muscle memory that you just have to direct to the target. (sorry about the run-on sentence if there are any english majors here).

One of the coolest things I've seen was Burton Richardson building a basic drill with focus mitts, where the feeder is limited to a couple of techs (jab, cross, kick) and you train one efficient counter to each of them. You then choose an appropriate point to enter into the clinch, with knees, throws and groundfighting as desired. The point of the drill was to work some cardio and some basic technique, but most importantly, I thought, to recognize the incoming attack and react appropriately.

Full sparring sometimes turns into a long range tag match, especially with beginners who have walked into a bomb a couple of times. I thought Burton introduced me to a neat way to limit the options sparring, with a drill that is still full-speed, contact and not pre-programmed.

I don't claim to be a JKD student, but use a lot from what I've seen!

 

[IFAJKD]

Those are functionality drills, some call them self preservation drills. Burton is a good guy. If you look at the ranges & you train in all of them, you begin to see fighting as a giving and taking of space. I always teach to avoid the "slug fest" and to use long range to avoid their tools and not trade bombs. but to use it to intercept and ddestroy what is comming in and then enter. Cool stuff indeed.
Clinch drills are a blast and they really add to your ability to "feel" the opponent and utilize major tools HKE

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by IFAJKD
I always teach to avoid the "slug fest" and to use long range to avoid their tools and not trade bombs.

What do you consider long range tools? Kicks only?

 

[IFAJKD]

I consider the kicking range to be long range. Weapons excluded here. Some punches can be thrown here. I don't think that there is any range exclusive to kicking, punching, trapping etc. It just comes down to the attributes of the fighter.
I have been absent for some time now and I will continue to be in all liklihood. At least for awhile. I am in the middle of opening a much larger school (for me). Much to learn and do.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by IFAJKD
I am in the middle of opening a much larger school (for me).

Good luck!

 

[IFAJKD]

Thanks. I believe it will go well. As I said. There is much to learn. I look to all of you for some help with this from time to time. Thanks in advance

 

[YODA]

Hi all

Another thing to consider about "Long Range" ---- one of the longest range things that you can be hit with, or use yourself, is not a kick but grappling. Yep - grappling. MANY people can & will hit you with a double leg takedown from outside of kicking range or at least AT kicking range.

Just a thought

 

[bscastro]

Before starting in my JKD class, I was primarily a stand-up fighter (TKD and Kali). However, now from training double and single leg takesdowns and also playing around with wrestlers outside of class, I see how much I have to be careful and also how much grappling skills are needed. Sometimes, in playing around, I can catch them with a sprawl or even stopping their momentum (and kneeing or punching them) if I see it early, but often I get taken down and then I'm out of my element (hoping to correct that).

I think alot of knowledge about what you know and don't know is from playful sparring with other people of different backgrounds. Even if you aren't trying to kill each other, the different "lines of attack" you can experience will be fruitful in pointing to where you need to improve. For some like me, there is much to improve, but everyone can improve somewhere. :asian:

Bryan

 

[Nightingale]

some good info here... what do you all think?

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Nightingale
some good info here... what do you all think?

I agree!

Mike

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by IFAJKD
One of the things that stands JKDers apart from others is how we train. We have a focus on attribute development rather than technique. Attributes such as speed, power timing, distance, but also foot work, (bladed motion) line familurization, sensitivity, neuro-muscular development, spatial awareness. The focus on functionality over form and diversity in all ranges over having a range "home" defines who JKDers are. I have watched many students with little training (1 year) who I would put in a fight with many many BB and they will thrive. It is because of attribute training. What I would like to know is your individual experience in your systems to develop functionality and attributes. In doing so this helps keep my mind open
Thanks

While I agree that functionality is paramount in a fight, there is a more philosophical question to be answered here; Are you a fighter, or are you a martial artist. Martial Arts by definition implys form. And while there are many martial artists who can't really fight, there are just an many fighters that wouldn't know a martial art if it bit them.

You can learn both but your devotion will always lean heavier one way or the other. eventually you reach a fulcrum piont at which you sacrifice your art for fighting skill, or you fighting skill to support your art. Which is more important to you? Which is more useful in your life?

If you get into alot of fights, I guess you would want to be the best fighter there is, but if you only use your skill once or twice in your lifetime to defend yourself, how great of a fighter do you really have to be?

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

"You can learn both but your devotion will always lean heavier one way or the other. eventually you reach a fulcrum piont at which you sacrifice your art for fighting skill, or you fighting skill to support your art. Which is more important to you? Which is more useful in your life?"



I'm sorry but I dont believe the "martial" part should be in conflict with the "art" part. One should not suffer as the result of strengthening the other.


I may have misunderstood, but I doubt it. The above qoute is fairly straight forward in its meaning.

:asian:

 

[moving target]

Are you a fighter, or are you a martial artist. Martial Arts by definition implys form. And while there are many martial artists who can't really fight, there are just an many fighters that wouldn't know a martial art if it bit them.

"martial arts" by definition only implies that the "art" (and the definitions of art is broad enough to encompass almost any set of actions) must be related to war or combat in some way. Fighting (in the physical sence) obviously is a form of combat and as such any given art could encompas any aspect having to do with fighting and if a given martial art is not optimal for a given fight than you are simply using the wrong tool for the situation. If you have to modify an art a great deal to come to a desired result, and in fact modify your art so much that you would no longer consider it the art you started with, than that original art simply lacked the qualities that you wanted.. I don't see anything wrong with this, the individual simply has to assess their goals and take actions to see them through.. Not all arts, or teachings of those arts will be optimal for what you want or need.

I however disagree with the other part of the quote. I think if someone could be classified as a "fighter" they would have to be aquanted with some form of martial art, however informal it may be. If someone is a fighter than obviously they must fight. Unless they are simply insanely lucky and happen to forget everything they ever do in a fight, their memmory will lead them to some sort of system that they use when they fight, wether that is simply "destract and sucker-punch" or "ground and pound" Once you develop any order to what you do you have created, at very leaste in your own mind, an art.

 

[Flatlander]

One of the things that stands JKDers apart from others is how we train. We have a focus on attribute development rather than technique. Attributes such as speed, power timing, distance, but also foot work, (bladed motion) line familurization, sensitivity, neuro-muscular development, spatial awareness. The focus on functionality over form and diversity in all ranges over having a range "home" defines who JKDers are. I have watched many students with little training (1 year) who I would put in a fight with many many BB and they will thrive. It is because of attribute training. What I would like to know is your individual experience in your systems to develop functionality and attributes. In doing so this helps keep my mind open
Thanks

This is a most excellent topic. I agree absolutely with the importance of the attribute training. But I'm not sure that attribute training and technique training need to be mutually exclusive. Rather, I feel they are both important ways to sharpen our tools. Work the technique until you develop good form and mechanics, then set up a drill to develop the attribute. Just about any technique can be incorporated into a 2 person drill set, you just need to be creative and come up with a good, efficient way to build the drill.

I haven't been doing this long enough to see all the various drills that my instructor has at his disposal to use as training tools. But I've done it long enough to know one thing for sure. Without attribute training, my tactile awareness would not have developed to where it is today. My touch sensitivity is the cornerstone of my defense ability, in my opinion.

 

[Han-Mi]

I only read the post and none of the replies, so if what I type has been typed, sorry. and sorry for not reading the replies, I'm beeing little lazy right now.

That being said, Don't we all train to improve our attributes? Though it is not our only focus, it is one of our goals to improve our speed, footwork, etc. to the highest level our body can handle. Actually, I would say that once you hit black belt, that's what it is all about. You already know all your techniques, all that is left is to improve; yourself, your techniques, etc. JKD is no different from any other Martial art in it's goal, only it's path getting there.

 

[Flatlander]

I only read the post and none of the replies, so if what I type has been typed, sorry. and sorry for not reading the replies, I'm beeing little lazy right now.

JKD is no different from any other Martial art in it's goal, only it's path getting there.

And that was the point of the original post. Because we focus heavily on attribute development right off the start, it helps the student to accelerate learning how to apply their skills.

 

[Han-Mi]

And that was the point of the original post. Because we focus heavily on attribute development right off the start, it helps the student to accelerate learning how to apply their skills.

looked like you were saying that JKD was the only style that developed attributes. And I was saying that that was not true at all. We all try to improve our attributes throughout training, from the beggining on. We just don't focus on that quite as much.

Looks like a 70/30 vs 50/50 to me(attributes/techs.).

 

[arnisador]

looked like you were saying that JKD was the only style that developed attributes. And I was saying that that was not true at all. We all try to improve our attributes throughout training, from the beggining on. We just don't focus on that quite as much.

I think most styles develop attributes, but few make it so very clear that that's what they're doing as does JKD. I would also say that many styles favor technqiues over attributes but in my experience JKD does the opposite.

 

[achilles]

A good martial arts technique is one that maximizes ones attributes. That is how I as a martial arts instructor decide how I teach a particular technique, by balancing how different bodily juxtapositions interface and weighing the effect they have on various factors (applied speed, power, non-telegraphy, etc.)