Attack sequence development

[skribs]

Recently, I've felt like the worst part of my game is bottom guard. I don't feel confident in my ability to attack (sweep or submission), and so it's a major stalling point for me in any roll. If I pull guard, I'm stuck. If I recover guard, I'm stuck. If I get swept, I'm stuck.

I talked to one of the brown belts yesterday and said that I really want to develop a sweep game. His advice for me was to develop an attack sequence. Pick a starting point and a submission that's the end goal, and work specifically towards that. Don't worry about branches and alternatives. Focus on that one attack sequence and troubleshoot any issues with it. Drill that sequence against white belts, and then just be a punching bag for upper belts. (Take any obvious submissions that are there, but otherwise focus on one submission).

I get where he's coming from, and what he's trying to get me to do. But I actually feel relatively confident in my attacks from a control position, it's just my attacks from guard that are the weak link. He was also intentionally vague on how I should develop this sequence. Which leads to a few questions that I'm asking myself, and maybe I could get some guidance on.

1. Should I develop a "defensive" sequence that starts from recovering guard, or an offensive sequence that starts with me getting on top with a take-down?
2. Is the development of a sweep game a subset of what he suggested I do? Right now that's the link in the chain that needs troubleshooting.
3. What submission do I want to focus on? Based on how things have been going recently for me, armbar seems a good one. Although I want to be the wrist lock spammer when I hit blue. I also do enjoy a nice paper cutter, punch choke, or Ezekiel, although I haven't gone for them in a while.
4. How narrow of a path should I carve for myself to get there? For example, do I always want to go pass guard - side control - mount - S-mount - armbar? Or do I want to just focus on advancing position until an armbar is an option?
5. Do I want to include other submissions as part of the attack chain (i.e. threaten the Americana to get the armbar) or do I want to focus exclusively on the armbar?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Recently, I've felt like the worst part of my game is bottom guard. I don't feel confident in my ability to attack (sweep or submission), and so it's a major stalling point for me in any roll. If I pull guard, I'm stuck. If I recover guard, I'm stuck. If I get swept, I'm stuck.

I talked to one of the brown belts yesterday and said that I really want to develop a sweep game. His advice for me was to develop an attack sequence. Pick a starting point and a submission that's the end goal, and work specifically towards that. Don't worry about branches and alternatives. Focus on that one attack sequence and troubleshoot any issues with it. Drill that sequence against white belts, and then just be a punching bag for upper belts. (Take any obvious submissions that are there, but otherwise focus on one submission).

I get where he's coming from, and what he's trying to get me to do. But I actually feel relatively confident in my attacks from a control position, it's just my attacks from guard that are the weak link. He was also intentionally vague on how I should develop this sequence. Which leads to a few questions that I'm asking myself, and maybe I could get some guidance on.

1. Should I develop a "defensive" sequence that starts from recovering guard, or an offensive sequence that starts with me getting on top with a take-down?
2. Is the development of a sweep game a subset of what he suggested I do? Right now that's the link in the chain that needs troubleshooting.
3. What submission do I want to focus on? Based on how things have been going recently for me, armbar seems a good one. Although I want to be the wrist lock spammer when I hit blue. I also do enjoy a nice paper cutter, punch choke, or Ezekiel, although I haven't gone for them in a while.
4. How narrow of a path should I carve for myself to get there? For example, do I always want to go pass guard - side control - mount - S-mount - armbar? Or do I want to just focus on advancing position until an armbar is an option?
5. Do I want to include other submissions as part of the attack chain (i.e. threaten the Americana to get the armbar) or do I want to focus exclusively on the armbar?

The instruction is vague because the path to success will be different. For each person. This is something you must work through to find what's best for you.

Sometimes you get too specific and as a result you close doors to your training.

 

[drop bear]

Recently, I've felt like the worst part of my game is bottom guard. I don't feel confident in my ability to attack (sweep or submission), and so it's a major stalling point for me in any roll. If I pull guard, I'm stuck. If I recover guard, I'm stuck. If I get swept, I'm stuck.

I talked to one of the brown belts yesterday and said that I really want to develop a sweep game. His advice for me was to develop an attack sequence. Pick a starting point and a submission that's the end goal, and work specifically towards that. Don't worry about branches and alternatives. Focus on that one attack sequence and troubleshoot any issues with it. Drill that sequence against white belts, and then just be a punching bag for upper belts. (Take any obvious submissions that are there, but otherwise focus on one submission).

I get where he's coming from, and what he's trying to get me to do. But I actually feel relatively confident in my attacks from a control position, it's just my attacks from guard that are the weak link. He was also intentionally vague on how I should develop this sequence. Which leads to a few questions that I'm asking myself, and maybe I could get some guidance on.

1. Should I develop a "defensive" sequence that starts from recovering guard, or an offensive sequence that starts with me getting on top with a take-down?
2. Is the development of a sweep game a subset of what he suggested I do? Right now that's the link in the chain that needs troubleshooting.
3. What submission do I want to focus on? Based on how things have been going recently for me, armbar seems a good one. Although I want to be the wrist lock spammer when I hit blue. I also do enjoy a nice paper cutter, punch choke, or Ezekiel, although I haven't gone for them in a while.
4. How narrow of a path should I carve for myself to get there? For example, do I always want to go pass guard - side control - mount - S-mount - armbar? Or do I want to just focus on advancing position until an armbar is an option?
5. Do I want to include other submissions as part of the attack chain (i.e. threaten the Americana to get the armbar) or do I want to focus exclusively on the armbar?

Keep it simple. Hip bump sweep to kimoura from guard can be chained together. And then work from there.

Or the famous arm bar, triangle, ompaloompa sequence.

The concept is called the horns of dilemma. You grab one horn. The other stabs you. You grab the other horn the first one stabs you. So mostly you don't threaten an armbar to get......

You attack the arm bar and then switch if they defend.

 

[HighKick]

Keep it simple. Hip bump sweep to kimoura from guard can be chained together. And then work from there.

Or the famous arm bar, triangle, ompaloompa sequence.

The concept is called the horns of dilemma. You grab one horn. The other stabs you. You grab the other horn the first one stabs you. So mostly you don't threaten an armbar to get......

You attack the arm bar and then switch if they defend.

Do you find it hard to get a kimorua on people who have a strong kip?

 

[drop bear]

Do you find it hard to get a kimorua on people who have a strong kip?

Yes. But that is the point of hitting more than one attack.

That was a surprisingly good demo. I will have to try that wrist grab variation.

 

[dunc]

Recently, I've felt like the worst part of my game is bottom guard. I don't feel confident in my ability to attack (sweep or submission), and so it's a major stalling point for me in any roll. If I pull guard, I'm stuck. If I recover guard, I'm stuck. If I get swept, I'm stuck.

I talked to one of the brown belts yesterday and said that I really want to develop a sweep game. His advice for me was to develop an attack sequence. Pick a starting point and a submission that's the end goal, and work specifically towards that. Don't worry about branches and alternatives. Focus on that one attack sequence and troubleshoot any issues with it. Drill that sequence against white belts, and then just be a punching bag for upper belts. (Take any obvious submissions that are there, but otherwise focus on one submission).

I get where he's coming from, and what he's trying to get me to do. But I actually feel relatively confident in my attacks from a control position, it's just my attacks from guard that are the weak link. He was also intentionally vague on how I should develop this sequence. Which leads to a few questions that I'm asking myself, and maybe I could get some guidance on.

1. Should I develop a "defensive" sequence that starts from recovering guard, or an offensive sequence that starts with me getting on top with a take-down?

If you want to develop your guard then you‘ll need to focus on bottom game surely
And it will probably suck for a while

1. Is the development of a sweep game a subset of what he suggested I do? Right now that's the link in the chain that needs troubleshooting.

Yes I think so (see below)

1. What submission do I want to focus on? Based on how things have been going recently for me, armbar seems a good one. Although I want to be the wrist lock spammer when I hit blue. I also do enjoy a nice paper cutter, punch choke, or Ezekiel, although I haven't gone for them in a while.

Are you talking about subs from top position?
If so my recommendation is to focus on submissions that keep your weight on top of your partner so you’re not risking losing position
I’d also focus on the submissions that are seen most commonly at high level (in the gi I feel it’s Armbar, collar choke, triangle from mount and back). in my view Ezekiels, paper cutter and punch chokes fall into the category of “attacks to use as set ups to the main event” as they’re all relatively easy to counter when you know how, but they demand a reaction

1. How narrow of a path should I carve for myself to get there? For example, do I always want to go pass guard - side control - mount - S-mount - armbar? Or do I want to just focus on advancing position until an armbar is an option?

Yes I think this is a good sequence to go deep into

1. Do I want to include other submissions as part of the attack chain (i.e. threaten the Americana to get the armbar) or do I want to focus exclusively on the armbar?

See below I think it’s a good idea to have a pretty narrow sequence that you do really well. That may involve some less high percentage submission attacks on the way (eg low mount, attack Ezekiel and move to high mount as they move their arms up to defend), but it’s best to see these as throw away attacks so you don’t get overly committed to them


In terms of developing a bottom guard/sweep game: I find that one tends to build guards up along the lines of
1 Can I get into the guard (eg recover to it or pull into it)
2 Can I keep people in my guard, retaining it, unbalancing them etc
3 Can I start to attack and get back into guard when they counter/defend
4 Can i complete an attack (sweep or sub)

It sounds like you’ve got 1 & 2 down so my advice would be to focus on your favourite guard and experiment with a few sweeps until you find one that works well for you. Then go deep into that
So that sweep becomes your Plan A and you develop a bunch of different ways to funnel your opponent into that sweep

In time of course it’s good to create dilemmas, combinations etc etc, but honestly I’d leave that to a later stage in your development (maybe purple)
I know many really strong guard players who basically do the same sweep on everyone all the time. I’m not saying that’s necessarily the way to go in the long run, but it works well even at black belt competitive levels and I think it’s a simpler task/goal to go for initially
Once you have that narrow sequence down to a deep level then you can add other sequences from different starting points and build a wholistic game this way

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Lot of good questions and there isn't necessarily a single correct answer for each. You have a lot of options based on your current objectives and preferences.

Should I develop a "defensive" sequence that starts from recovering guard, or an offensive sequence that starts with me getting on top with a take-down?

How narrow of a path should I carve for myself to get there? For example, do I always want to go pass guard - side control - mount - S-mount - armbar? Or do I want to just focus on advancing position until an armbar is an option?

If you are feeling that bottom of guard is your big weakness right now, then you probably want to work on developing an attack sequence from that position.

Is the development of a sweep game a subset of what he suggested I do? Right now that's the link in the chain that needs troubleshooting.

Absolutely. When you are on bottom of guard you want to maintain a constant threat of sweeping your opponent, submitting them, or just escaping back to your feet. It's much easier for your opponent to just defend one of those options than all three at once. (BTW, I include back takes from guard in the same category as sweeps.)

But I actually feel relatively confident in my attacks from a control position, it's just my attacks from guard that are the weak link.

There's a very important concept to address here. Your guard needs to be a control position, just like top mount. If it isn't operating as a control position, then you are going to have a really hard time getting sweeps or submissions from guard. Your top priority needs to be developing the ability from bottom of guard to break your opponent's posture, control grips, and get superior angles. Without those elements, you don't have control and without control, you aren't getting any good attack sequence.

What submission do I want to focus on? Based on how things have been going recently for me, armbar seems a good one

From guard, your top options are armbar, kimura, triangle, cross-collar choke, and to a lesser extent the omaplata. (The omaplata will more often turn into a sweep against experienced opponents.) The guillotine is a top tier submission, but while that is often finished from the guard it very often is initiated before you get to guard.

Do I want to include other submissions as part of the attack chain (i.e. threaten the Americana to get the armbar) or do I want to focus exclusively on the armbar?

You will need to include the threat of different techniques in order to reliably set up your target submission. Those can be sweeps or other submissions or even the threat of standing up. How many different options you want to include in the mix is a judgment call based on your own experience.

 

[Ivan]

Hey bro. Nice to see you’re sticking with jiujitsu and working on it. In terms of developing a sequence, the way I have always gone about a situation is picking a move I like it and sticking with it. For example, I have been focusing on the over under pass for almost a year, and I have become so comfortable with it that it has become a staple of my game. I was extremely terrible at passing guard, and I would only play guard, so I decided to make my weakness my strength.
However, it is important, for me at least, to treat techniques as positions rather than 1 dimensional moves. For example, from the mount position you have several options such as chokes, arm bars, transitions, etc. Although the over under pass is a technique, from the over under position I too have options: I have the pass, the dog bar, a variation of the pass which I adapted myself, I can back out or attempt to transition to another pass (still working on this).
So I would say that the first step to developing an attack sequence is simply to find an attack you like and create a system around it. For example, the guillotine from closed guard. After that, consider your options if it fails: Guillotine -> Hip Bump sweep, or Guillotine -> Kimura. Lastly, drill it before and after class, and during sparring, aim to spar with people whom you can easily control and attempt to hit this sequence, or just the guillotine on them. Keep doing this and slowly increase the quality of your training partners, and eventually you will find yourself hitting this sequence on people at your levels too.

 

[skribs]

There's a very important concept to address here. Your guard needs to be a control position, just like top mount. If it isn't operating as a control position, then you are going to have a really hard time getting sweeps or submissions from guard. Your top priority needs to be developing the ability from bottom of guard to break your opponent's posture, control grips, and get superior angles. Without those elements, you don't have control and without control, you aren't getting any good attack sequence.

Maybe then for the meantime I want to focus on submissions from guard, so I have something to threaten in order to get the sweep.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Maybe then for the meantime I want to focus on submissions from guard, so I have something to threaten in order to get the sweep.

Improving your submissions will make it easier to get the sweep. Improving your sweeps will make it easier to get the submission. Getting to your feet any time your sparring partner doesn't give you the pressure to hold you down will give you more openings for both sweeps and submissions.

 

[skribs]

Improving your submissions will make it easier to get the sweep. Improving your sweeps will make it easier to get the submission. Getting to your feet any time your sparring partner doesn't give you the pressure to hold you down will give you more openings for both sweeps and submissions.

True. Although now I'm leaning back towards sweeps. Reason:

• In a pass/sweep positional roll, I can sweep, I cannot submit or stand up
• In a pass/sweep/submission positional roll, I can sweep or submit, I cannot stand up.
• In a live roll, I can stand up, but do not want to.

 

[drop bear]

True. Although now I'm leaning back towards sweeps. Reason:

• In a pass/sweep positional roll, I can sweep, I cannot submit or stand up
• In a pass/sweep/submission positional roll, I can sweep or submit, I cannot stand up.
• In a live roll, I can stand up, but do not want to.

Why can't you stand up?

 

[skribs]

Why can't you stand up?

I technically can, but it's kinda meh. It's like winning on points. Only worse, because you don't even win.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

True. Although now I'm leaning back towards sweeps. Reason:

• In a pass/sweep positional roll, I can sweep, I cannot submit or stand up
• In a pass/sweep/submission positional roll, I can sweep or submit, I cannot stand up.
• In a live roll, I can stand up, but do not want to.

I technically can, but it's kinda meh. It's like winning on points. Only worse, because you don't even win.

If you want your BJJ to be a martial art and not just a highly specialized sport, then being able to stand up while someone tries to keep you down is essential.

Even if you do train BJJ just for typical BJJ sport competition rules, standing up can still be beneficial because it gives you the opportunity to get a takedown and end up on top.

Of course, if you are currently doing a drill with more limited options (like pass/sweep) that's fine. Those are drills for polishing specific elements of your game. But for real application it all works best when you bring all the elements together - striking, takedowns, takedown defense, escapes, sweeps, guard passes, submissions, standing up, etc.

 

[drop bear]

I technically can, but it's kinda meh. It's like winning on points. Only worse, because you don't even win.

Do you win in rolling?

But pop up and go back in. Attack their turtle or something.

 

[skribs]

If you want your BJJ to be a martial art and not just a highly specialized sport, then being able to stand up while someone tries to keep you down is essential.

Even if you do train BJJ just for typical BJJ sport competition rules, standing up can still be beneficial because it gives you the opportunity to get a takedown and end up on top.

Of course, if you are currently doing a drill with more limited options (like pass/sweep) that's fine. Those are drills for polishing specific elements of your game. But for real application it all works best when you bring all the elements together - striking, takedowns, takedown defense, escapes, sweeps, guard passes, submissions, standing up, etc.

The more serious reason is I'm here to learn the ground, so I want to spend as much time on the ground as possible. I'm currently training Muay Thai and I've got plenty of other standup experience.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The more serious reason is I'm here to learn the ground, so I want to spend as much time on the ground as possible. I'm currently training Muay Thai and I've got plenty of other standup experience.

Reasonable, but I’ll offer the counterpoint that if you want your BJJ and your TKD/MT to fully complement each other then you want the ability to control where the fight goes. Which means takedowns, takedown defense, stand-ups, and mat returns.

This way, if you are losing the fight standing then you have the ability to take the fight to the ground. If you are losing the fight on the ground, you have the ability to stand up. If you are doing well in either, but the situation changes then you have the ability to adapt.

Plus, adding the option to stand up will just make your BJJ and that of your training partners technically better. It’s one thing to think that you are good at submissions and guard passing when your partner agrees to just hang out on the ground with you. If they are constantly trying to get up, then you have to sharpen your control skills in order to keep them down. Likewise, if you are on the bottom of guard and you force your sparring partner to work to hold you down, then you will find a lot more opportunities for sweeps and submissions.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Keep it simple. Hip bump sweep

Mmh.

Never underestimate the power of the hip bump.

That's some ancient knowledge right there.

 

[drop bear]

The more serious reason is I'm here to learn the ground, so I want to spend as much time on the ground as possible. I'm currently training Muay Thai and I've got plenty of other standup experience.

 

[HighKick]

If you want your BJJ to be a martial art and not just a highly specialized sport, then being able to stand up while someone tries to keep you down is essential.

Even if you do train BJJ just for typical BJJ sport competition rules, standing up can still be beneficial because it gives you the opportunity to get a takedown and end up on top.

Of course, if you are currently doing a drill with more limited options (like pass/sweep) that's fine. Those are drills for polishing specific elements of your game. But for real application it all works best when you bring all the elements together - striking, takedowns, takedown defense, escapes, sweeps, guard passes, submissions, standing up, etc.

Wrestling 101.