Attach something moral to something evil, to make it seem good to many

[lifespantkd]

So as American born and raised Taekwondoin, even if we can grasp some understanding without to many misconceptions, I feel it will that understanding, and even the misunderstandings will come out through our Christian based experience and understanding, which most all American borns have, whether we claim a faith of Christianity or not.

76% of Americans identified with a branch of Christianity in 2008. 15% identified themselves as atheistic, agnostic, humanistic, or non-religious. 4% identified themselves as non-Christian but religious (e.g., Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Unitarian-Universalist....). The remainder chose not to answer the question. (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0075.pdf)

Cynthia

 

[mastercole]

My first thought was that, arguably, the greatest barrier to effective self-defense using the physical components of Taekwondo is the emotional state that inherently arises from our attachment to "I" when that "I" is threatened. Paradoxically, our strong attachment to what Buddhist philosophy would say is our false perception of a permanent self is the very thing that gets in the way of effective self-defense. Unifying our mind-body and becoming one with the situation including the attacker is what allows effective self-defense.

Excellent. This is the heart of the matter. Shaken and challenged our weakest misunderstandings (usually about ourselves) are the first to fail, becoming identifiable as being what was in the way of learning and/or of taking action while presented with a situation (of learning or needed action).

My second thought is that philosophy is inextricably intertwined with the smallest physical component of Taekwondo. How can the physical components by understood, much less enacted completely/correctly, if the philosophy is not understood?
Cynthia

This gets to what puunui points out with different levels. Once Kukkiwon Taekwondo practitioners, get a basic grip on the genuine basics, it's time to open a new door to this specific subject, and go deep inside that new area. You stated that "philosophy is inextricably intertwined with the smallest physical component of Taekwondo." To get to the next level, as puunui stated, I feel that first, a Taekwondoin must identify that what you have stated here, studying it and discovering it, can get them closer to that next level.

What you bring up is a lot to write out here, way to much in fact. Anyone interested in following this deeper, look into the yeokhak philosophy, and I am sure Lifespan can suggest a good Western school of thought to pair that with.

 

[mastercole]

Any code of conduct has the potential to be grossly misused. Codes of conduct can be used to establish and maintain power, authority, and legitimacy by those with ulterior motives. They can be used as a form of indoctrination into obedience to a false authority. They can be used to silence those who recognize when the codes are being misused. And, so on.
Cynthia

When I see people pushing their students hard on creeds, codes, etc, this is the first thing I think about. To me, it's a big red flag.

 

[andyjeffries]

76% of Americans identified with a branch of Christianity in 2008. 15% identified themselves as atheistic, agnostic, humanistic, or non-religious. 4% identified themselves as non-Christian but religious (e.g., Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Unitarian-Universalist....). The remainder chose not to answer the question. (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0075.pdf)

I'd be interested to know if your census questions are as apparently flawed as those in the UK.

According to the British Social Attitudes survey - 50% of Britains are non-religious. However, previous censuses have only said that about 15% of Britains are non-religious. Some sources believe this is because the way the question is worded is flawed, and campaigned to have the question phrased in a more neutral way. Ultimately they failed so the question was included as it always had been.

I also find it interesting that the percentage of people considering themselves Christian in the USA has fallen since 1990 from 86% to 76%. A sign of the changing times...

Anyway, religious debates is all a bit off topic for a Taekwondo form, but I don't think religion/religious affiliation has any effect on morality. It's the person not the religion (or lack of)


Andy "proud-to-be-atheist" Jeffries

 

[Earl Weiss]

When I see people pushing their students hard on creeds, codes, etc, this is the first thing I think about. To me, it's a big red flag.

Please elaborate vis a vis "Pushing Hard".

 

[Earl Weiss]

Saw the title of this thread and could not help but consider the reverse:

Attach something evil to something moral to make it seem bad to many.

 

[Tez3]

I'd be interested to know if your census questions are as apparently flawed as those in the UK.

According to the British Social Attitudes survey - 50% of Britains are non-religious. However, previous censuses have only said that about 15% of Britains are non-religious. Some sources believe this is because the way the question is worded is flawed, and campaigned to have the question phrased in a more neutral way. Ultimately they failed so the question was included as it always had been.

I also find it interesting that the percentage of people considering themselves Christian in the USA has fallen since 1990 from 86% to 76%. A sign of the changing times...

Anyway, religious debates is all a bit off topic for a Taekwondo form, but I don't think religion/religious affiliation has any effect on morality. It's the person not the religion (or lack of)


Andy "proud-to-be-atheist" Jeffries

Don't forget the Jedi!

2001 census

• Christian: 70.0%
• No religion: 14.7%
• Chose not to respond: 7.8%
• Muslim: 3.1%
• Hindu: 2.1%
• Jedi: 0.7%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

 

[Gnarlie]

Don't forget the Jedi!

2001 census

• Christian: 70.0%
• No religion: 14.7%
• Chose not to respond: 7.8%
• Muslim: 3.1%
• Hindu: 2.1%
• Jedi: 0.7%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

I used to be a Jedi, before I left!

 

[andyjeffries]

I used to be a Jedi, before I left!

Sith or just one of the Lost Twenty?

 

[miguksaram]

My first thought was that, arguably, the greatest barrier to effective self-defense using the physical components of Taekwondo is the emotional state that inherently arises from our attachment to "I" when that "I" is threatened. Paradoxically, our strong attachment to what Buddhist philosophy would say is our false perception of a permanent self is the very thing that gets in the way of effective self-defense. Unifying our mind-body and becoming one with the situation including the attacker is what allows effective self-defense.

While I see where you are coming from, inevitably if you do not physically train yourself to strike correctly or with the right intent, then no amount of philosophical departure of self and being one with the situation is going to completely help you. While you stand a better chance of remaining calm and squashing the fight of flight instinct that is pre-programmed in all of us, the physicality of conquering the situation will not improve.

My second thought is that philosophy is inextricably intertwined with the smallest physical component of Taekwondo. How can the physical components by understood, much less enacted completely/correctly, if the philosophy is not understood?

Understanding the philosophy behind the technique may help understand why we execute a specific way, but inevitably it is the mechanical execution itself comprised with the intent of the mind which render a technique deadly, not-deadly, or just plain useless.

 

[miguksaram]

Any code of conduct has the potential to be grossly misused. Codes of conduct can be used to establish and maintain power, authority, and legitimacy by those with ulterior motives. They can be used as a form of indoctrination into obedience to a false authority. They can be used to silence those who recognize when the codes are being misused. And, so on.

True...we see this everyday in the bastardization of religions by many radicals.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I disagree with both of you. In a nice way

Learning the culture as deep as we can as a Westerner, will make us better strikers, and better at everything Taekwondo or KMA, technical and otherwise. Any idea why I make such a statement?

I was referring to the physical technique, not the ability, proficiency to use it (I know this doesn't sound right, it's hard to put this into the right words). The Daoist concept of Wu Wei (not sure the korean term for it, Moo something?), is not something that can be taught. You can speak about it until the cows come home, but until you actually experience it, you won't really understand it. One of my seniors described it as an "out of body experience;" you are sitting back watching the fight happen without actively taking part in it.

For example: "As planets revolve around the sun, they "do" this revolving, but without "doing" it; or as trees grow, they "do", but without "doing". Thus knowing when (and how) to act is not knowledge in the sense that one would think "now" is the right time to do "this", but rather just doing it, doing the natural thing. "

This will exponentially make you a better fighter, and will certainly help you land a side kick, but I'm not sure it will improve the technique of the side kick. Although I may still be missing something.. .

 

[mastercole]

Please elaborate vis a vis "Pushing Hard".

An entire organization of school chanting codes and creeds with a photo of the "leader" hanging on most dojang walls in said organization, or if not photo a revered creator, one school doing the same on it's own. Cult of personality.

It goes against Buddhist, Taoist and Confucian thought, the fabric of Taekwondo.

A leader is best
When people barely know that he exists,
Not so good when people obey and acclaim him,
Worst when they despise him.
'Fail to honor people,
They fail to honor you;'
But of a good leader, who talks little,
When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,
They will all say, 'We did this ourselves.'

Lao Tzu - Tao Te Ching

 

[mastercole]

While I see where you are coming from, inevitably if you do not physically train yourself to strike correctly or with the right intent, then no amount of philosophical departure of self and being one with the situation is going to completely help you. While you stand a better chance of remaining calm and squashing the fight of flight instinct that is pre-programmed in all of us, the physicality of conquering the situation will not improve.

Understanding the philosophy behind the technique may help understand why we execute a specific way, but inevitably it is the mechanical execution itself comprised with the intent of the mind which render a technique deadly, not-deadly, or just plain useless.

In Taekwondo's case, as first brought to the practitioners attention via the Taegeuk Poomsae, every mechanical principle of every physical action is itself based on the philosophy of the Tao. I'm not talking about the gwe representing wind, light, water, etc. Think Han philosophy and Yeokhak. E-mail me if you like, it's way to much to be said here, I just don't have that kind of time now.

 

[lifespantkd]

I'd be interested to know if your census questions are as apparently flawed as those in the UK.

According to the British Social Attitudes survey - 50% of Britains are non-religious. However, previous censuses have only said that about 15% of Britains are non-religious. Some sources believe this is because the way the question is worded is flawed, and campaigned to have the question phrased in a more neutral way. Ultimately they failed so the question was included as it always had been.

I'm sure there are flaws! Trying to quantify something as esoteric as human belief systems is only going to yield a vague approximation.

Cynthia

 

[mastercole]

Saw the title of this thread and could not help but consider the reverse:

Attach something evil to something moral to make it seem bad to many.

Can you provide us with a few examples?

 

[mastercole]

I was referring to the physical technique, not the ability, proficiency to use it (I know this doesn't sound right, it's hard to put this into the right words). The Daoist concept of Wu Wei (not sure the korean term for it, Moo something?), is not something that can be taught. You can speak about it until the cows come home, but until you actually experience it, you won't really understand it. One of my seniors described it as an "out of body experience;" you are sitting back watching the fight happen without actively taking part in it.

For example: "As planets revolve around the sun, they "do" this revolving, but without "doing" it; or as trees grow, they "do", but without "doing". Thus knowing when (and how) to act is not knowledge in the sense that one would think "now" is the right time to do "this", but rather just doing it, doing the natural thing. "

This will exponentially make you a better fighter, and will certainly help you land a side kick, but I'm not sure it will improve the technique of the side kick. Although I may still be missing something.. .

Can you find the Hanja (traditional Chinese characters) for it? I'm not sure I follow.

My point was that by learning as much of the culture as were are capable of learning, we can get closer to the source of knowledge, hence "correctly" learning more about the skills, and everything else.

 

[lifespantkd]

While I see where you are coming from, inevitably if you do not physically train yourself to strike correctly or with the right intent, then no amount of philosophical departure of self and being one with the situation is going to completely help you. While you stand a better chance of remaining calm and squashing the fight of flight instinct that is pre-programmed in all of us, the physicality of conquering the situation will not improve.


Understanding the philosophy behind the technique may help understand why we execute a specific way, but inevitably it is the mechanical execution itself comprised with the intent of the mind which render a technique deadly, not-deadly, or just plain useless.

In case it wasn't clear, in my view, mind-body training, not mind training, not body training, is essential for effective self defense. I see them as inseparable--two sides of the same coin, the um and yang making a whole.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Can you provide us with a few examples?

Communism and Socialism as economic systems would not be considered by most to be moraly "Bad" , but when corrupted thru Marxism or Leninism, in practice they were bad.

Similarly, and on a TKD associated note the concept of Self Reliance, and Self determination are not Moraly Bad, but when adopted by the North Korean Tyrannical rulers (Note: the person credited with formulating the Ju Che philosophy later defected from NK) to promote and foster their agenda it was bad.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'd be interested to know if your census questions are as apparently flawed as those in the UK.

According to the British Social Attitudes survey - 50% of Britains are non-religious. However, previous censuses have only said that about 15% of Britains are non-religious. Some sources believe this is because the way the question is worded is flawed, and campaigned to have the question phrased in a more neutral way. Ultimately they failed so the question was included as it always had been.

I also find it interesting that the percentage of people considering themselves Christian in the USA has fallen since 1990 from 86% to 76%. A sign of the changing times...

Anyway, religious debates is all a bit off topic for a Taekwondo form, but I don't think religion/religious affiliation has any effect on morality. It's the person not the religion (or lack of)


Andy "proud-to-be-atheist" Jeffries

Then you have the question of what defines being religious, regardless of the religion. Many people I know are essentially non-religious, but if asked, will say this, that, or the other religion or denomenation.

I think that religion often defines the traditions that we are raised in and observe; many people who have virtually no attachment to church participate in Thanksgiving and Christmas because it the tradition in which they were raised.

So, in short, I agree; it really does come down to the individual.