Anyone have any Endust?

[MJS]

I'm still interested in hearing about Manaka. Is/was Hatsumi supportive of what he did? Did Hatsumi remove Manakas name as he did Hayes?

 

[Don Roley]

I'm still interested in hearing about Manaka. Is/was Hatsumi supportive of what he did? Did Hatsumi remove Manakas name as he did Hayes?

I do not remember seeing it. When a person leaves the system, it is natural to take down their tablet. Manaka left the Bujinkan and now Hayes has left.

And I would not say that Hatsumi is/was supportive of what Manaka did/does. Manaka does call what he does a different name. But there were stories about bad relations between the two before the split. Hatsumi gave an order that training should not be held by Japanese shihan in America without his approval. And I have (maybe had- don't know if I still have it) a video tape of Manaka admiting at a seminar that he went behind Hatsumi's back to give it, and probably did more. Can you imagine how that sort of thing went over as news came back to Japan? If I have a video tape of it, it is not hard to imagine someone slipping a copy into Hatsumi's hands.

So no, when Manaka walked out, Hatsumi seems to be glad to see him leave. But don't expect to hear him trash Manaka public. That is just not his style. That is not what Japanese do as a general rule.

 

[Don Roley]

Here is a link to Johji Ohashi's web site. He is the guy who takes money and runs things for Hatsumi.

http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/

Although the latest news from the Hombu seems to have surprised many people, the facts involved are very simple.

Soke has decided that the person in question has moved away from the Bujinkan and so he is no longer recognized as a Bujinkan member. His name placard has been removed from the 10th dan board in the Hombu Dojo.
(Soke doesn't care if people call it a Hamon or not.)

I hope this clarifies the issue. Please stop making a fuss on the Internet. There is no need for discussion on this matter, but you can contact Soke if you are REALLY concerned.

If you do not want to take my word for things, take it up with Hatsumi. It is hard to argue that the source above is not close to Hatsumi or does not have the full story.

Unfortunatly, it looks like there will be some controversy as I just saw this on Hayes' site.

Friday, May 19, 2006 - Wild hysterical internet rumors again! Have you heard these rumors of Hatsumi Sensei no longer being my sensei? We've heard nothing from Hatsumi Sensei himself of course, but since several people are trying their best to promote these rumors I should address them here. These kinds of rumors pop up on the internet every year or so, and I have always found it better to ignore them publicly and allow folks to discover the truth themselves in time, but these current rumors are so virulent that it seems appropriate make a comment here. Just weeks ago, Rumiko and I had a delightful time training and speaking with Hatsumi Sensei in Japan. Hatsumi Sensei will always be "my sensei" and as always I accord him my highest respect and gratitude for all he has shared with me. I will write to him and ask what he would like us to say at this point.

I happen to think that the announcement on Johji Ohashi's web site can be classified as a bit more than internet rumor. It is about as public a statement as you can get. Hayes moved on from the Bujinkan. He is not teaching Bujinkan stuff. There is nothing wrong with that. It is just the confusion over the matter with people thinking that what they get from him is the same as the stuff Hatsumi is teaching.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Johji Ohashi's website makes it clear as day to me.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Don Roley]

Johji Ohashi's website makes it clear as day to me.

Well, there still seems to be a lot of confusion. And a lot of screaming. When I saw the letter to me with a request to pass along the information I had a feeling of dread. And my fears have come true. Already there are people saying that Phil Legare is only saying what he saw due to a desire to steal Toshindo students. Someone on another board attacked me and tried to bait me into a flame war when I clarified some issues. He went on a huge rant trashing Hatsumi for his action and also told us we should not be talking trash about people like Hayes on the internet.

I have seen this happen before and can only hope that the announcement might stop the most vocal attacks. If you have any problems with the announcement, take it up with Hatsumi. You can't say that Johji Ohashi is trying to steal students from Hayes or that he does not know what is going on with Hatsumi.

But I suspect that maybe Hayes, since he was not thrown out, will try to get back in good with Hatsumi and attend training once more. And that is going to be a whole new can of worms. I really am not looking forward to that if it happens.

 

[Tengu6]

Someone on another board attacked me and tried to bait me into a flame war when I clarified some issues. He went on a huge rant trashing Hatsumi for his action and also told us we should not be talking trash about people like Hayes on the internet. .

Don, the "paper mountain" always has something to say, unfortunately there is never much (any) substance. It is best to just avoid any discussion with him, it only keeps him around longer.

Markk Bush

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Soke has decided that the person in question has moved away from the Bujinkan and so he is no longer recognized as a Bujinkan member. His name placard has been removed from the 10th dan board in the Hombu Dojo.
(Soke doesn't care if people call it a Hamon or not.)

Hey Don,

I can only imagine what is being said behind closed doors. However, when I look at the above statement it seems pretty clear what the message is
to me! Knowing how close both Phil Legare and Johji Ohashi are there
credibility with me is without question. (neither would do this if not
directed to) No matter what, it is a sad event all the way around for
everybody involved!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[lalom]

Sad day indeed. I don't think that Mr. Hayes should "try" and get back in good with Soke as Don speculates he will. Maybe he will. I just don't think he should. Yes, To-Shin Do is different and it isn't Bujinkan Budo. In many ways similar, but indeed different.

What I DO have a problem with is Soke's ethics. If he is/was the upstanding professional as I have come to believe he is, then he should've directly and personally approached Mr. Hayes and let him know his issues and intentions for removal. I know someone may assume that he already did based on Mr. Hayes' post about doing lunch with him, but since no one was there to witness it as such, then it is merely a speculation. An assumption. Why wait till a few weeks after Mr. Hayes is in Japan to do some "symbolic" removal of a nameplate? Makes for a blurry statement. I know, I know, "lalom, you obviously don't understand Japanese culture." Please, spare me. Be a man of integrity and make a formal and concise statement. Not a gesture, use words that are vague, and say, "call it whatever you want." Unethical is what I say. Want to make things clear? Then do it.

Soke is admired by most folks. I think the way he went around doing what he's done, may have in fact had a positive effect on Mr. Hayes and a negative on himself. Please folks. This is my opinion of the situation and I continue to hold Soke in high regard. Just think he could've done this in a more classy way - in a way that I've come to understand him to be.

Now off of my soapbox. What's been done has been done. Mr. Hayes is no longer in the Bujinkan. So what? Now what? I just need to train! As Tom Hanks so abley put it, "The sun will rise tomorrow."

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

What I DO have a problem with is Soke's ethics. If he is/was the upstanding professional as I have come to believe he is, then he should've directly and personally approached Mr. Hayes and let him know his issues and intentions for removal.

Hatsumi is Japanese. I can tell you're not. However, if he hadn't been, I'd agree with you.

Soke is admired by most folks. I think the way he went around doing what he's done, may have in fact had a positive effect on Mr. Hayes and a negative on himself.

You mean people would see Hayes as some sort of oppressed rebel struggling for freedom? Hmmm...:ninja:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Sad day indeed. I don't think that Mr. Hayes should "try" and get back in good with Soke as Don speculates he will. Maybe he will. I just don't think he should. Yes, To-Shin Do is different and it isn't Bujinkan Budo. In many ways similar, but indeed different.

What I DO have a problem with is Soke's ethics. If he is/was the upstanding professional as I have come to believe he is, then he should've directly and personally approached Mr. Hayes and let him know his issues and intentions for removal. I know someone may assume that he already did based on Mr. Hayes' post about doing lunch with him, but since no one was there to witness it as such, then it is merely a speculation. An assumption. Why wait till a few weeks after Mr. Hayes is in Japan to do some "symbolic" removal of a nameplate? Makes for a blurry statement. I know, I know, "lalom, you obviously don't understand Japanese culture." Please, spare me. Be a man of integrity and make a formal and concise statement. Not a gesture, use words that are vague, and say, "call it whatever you want." Unethical is what I say. Want to make things clear? Then do it.

Soke is admired by most folks. I think the way he went around doing what he's done, may have in fact had a positive effect on Mr. Hayes and a negative on himself. Please folks. This is my opinion of the situation and I continue to hold Soke in high regard. Just think he could've done this in a more classy way - in a way that I've come to understand him to be.

Now off of my soapbox. What's been done has been done. Mr. Hayes is no longer in the Bujinkan. So what? Now what? I just need to train! As Tom Hanks so abley put it, "The sun will rise tomorrow."

I do not practice any Japanese art let alone that of Me Hayes or Hatsumi Soke.

In your statement is an error in logic.

To assume it is wrong to presume that Soke did try to communicate with Mr Hayes and yet you state we cannot do that because it was just the two of them. Then you go on to say his actions are unethical, without such communicate, which requires you to make some presumption of what did not occur at this said lunch meeting.

It cannot be both ways. If so then there is unethical behaviour on both parts. Or there may be on only one but as you stated it all depends upon what was said in this lunch meeting.

My dealings with the Japanese in general, would have that their culture is full of formal rituals and formal communications. I would have expected that before such a formal event had occurred an invitation to be present or a meeting would have occurred to inform those involved.

 

[r erman]

Mostly on topic:

Do any of you in Japan, who are closer to this decision, know if Rumiko's rank has been removed/revoked/no-longer-recognized as well?

She is co-founder of To Shin Do after all...and if not, what is the significance of that from a japanese cultural standpoint?

 

[Dale Seago]

Hatsumi is Japanese. I can tell you're not. However, if he hadn't been, I'd agree with you.

Ditto. I don't know what was said at the luncheon, but I doubt it was very overtly negative to SKH. It wasn't mentioned at his website, but Moti Nativ was also there, and I could just email him if I really cared, which I don't. Or I could ask one of my students who's training in Japan right now to ask Nagato.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if SKH's comments about his Japan trip on his website were contributory to Soke's decision.

But it's not as though Soke hasn't made his views known less directly through intermediaries over the years, giving SKH ample opportunity to "adjust course" without the need for any direct interpersonal unpleasantness between him and Soke. Heck, I had a conversation once with Soke and Nagato where Soke was going on about SKH "going his own way", and I made a point of telling SKH about it so he could hopefully patch things up.

Oh, and by the way, that was seventeen years ago.

 

[Don Roley]

What I DO have a problem with is Soke's ethics. If he is/was the upstanding professional as I have come to believe he is, then he should've directly and personally approached Mr. Hayes and let him know his issues and intentions for removal. I know someone may assume that he already did based on Mr. Hayes' post about doing lunch with him, but since no one was there to witness it as such, then it is merely a speculation. An assumption. Why wait till a few weeks after Mr. Hayes is in Japan to do some "symbolic" removal of a nameplate?

Yes, some may assume that he did not tell Hayes what he was doing was not what Hatsumi wanted. But you can tell from my first post in this thread that the version of events I heard is not in the same flavor as what Hayes wrote about the situation after the fact.

Dale just said that he was involved as early as 17 years ago trying to tell Hayes about Hatsumi's thoughts. Yet no where will you see anything by Hayes that indicates that there is any problem with what he is doing in Hatsumi's eyes.

So, if a person keeps painting a certain version of events, do you keep trying to get him to accept another. Or do you come out with something that lets other people know? Remember the whole thing about the use of the Kukishinden ryu name? People think that because Hayes kept showing up to Japan and was not barred from entry that Hatsumi accepted and approved of his action. After this recent trip, the first thing you see from Hayes is an account that keeps up the impression that Hatsumi is active in what Hayes is doing and teaching. I really do not think Hatsumi had much of a choice than to let people know this way about where he stands on the matter.

This message was not so much for Hayes I think. This is for others to know how he feels. In Japanese culture, it is a drastic step. I am certain that in his mind, Hatsumi gave Hayes plenty of chances to make the situation right that were never followed through. It is really sad that it had to come to this.

 

[lalom]

For sure...

 

[Dale Seago]

Regarding Post #23 on page 2 ( http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=543990#post543990 ), someone may want to do a screen capture of the Hombu Administrator's announcement for posterity, as apparently it is going to go away soon:

(I'll delete this comment in a few days because it has almost nothing to do with the two classes I'm in charge of -- May 22nd.)

There appears to be a "secondary message" in that announcement as well, along the lines of, "It's been done, it really has nothing to do with our Bujinkan training, so let's move on."

 

[Tengu6]

Here ya go:

Markk Bush

 

[Dale Seago]

Wow. Apparently it's still just "wild hysterical internet rumors" until Soke makes the effort to reach out to An-shu and personally break the news to him. He's revised the May 19 message (which is no longer up) but has retained part of it, added new material, and dated it with today's date:

Monday, May 22, 2006 - Wild hysterical internet rumors again! Have you heard these rumors of Hatsumi Sensei no longer being my sensei? We've heard nothing from Hatsumi Sensei himself of course, but since several people are trying their best to promote these rumors I should address them here. These kinds of rumors pop up on the internet every year or so, and I have always found it better to ignore them publicly and allow folks to discover the truth themselves in time. But these current rumors are so virulent that it seems appropriate to acknowledge them here. Just weeks ago, Rumiko and I had a delightful time training and speaking with Hatsumi Sensei in Japan. Hatsumi Sensei will always be "my sensei" and as always I accord him my highest respect and gratitude for all he has shared with me. I have written to him to ask what he would like us to say at this point.
I will report back on this blog immediately as soon as we hear from Hatsumi Sensei, so do not bother to e-mail or phone the Dayton Hombu office - nothing more we can tell you for now. Meanwhile, use this time of confusion to re-dedicate your practice to the highest of ideals. You know why you are training. You know what your goals are. You know what your greatest challenges are. Train diligently and sincerely so that by the end of each day, you are a little closer to being the tatsujin "person of actualized perfection" that you strive to become. Do not allow negative people to distract you. Jealous ones may plot to demean your hard-earned success. Fearful ones may scheme to avoid your intimidating skill. But you persevere nonetheless. Nin-po Ik-kan is the way you must live - embodying "consistent warrior training" no matter what obstacles come along that day.

(http://www.skhquest.com/Articles/WordsFromAnShu.aspx)


So we are to believe that the Bujinkan Hombu Administrator is abusing his position and misusing Soke's name to post "virulent" rumors about SKH. Just amazing.

 

[Koinu]

So we are to believe that the Bujinkan Hombu Administrator is abusing his position and misusing Soke's name to post "virulent" rumors about SKH. Just amazing.

Funny how these people and their supporters who claim to be so modern in their approach to training seem to always fall back on the very old Roman tactic of killing the messenger kills the message.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Funny how these people and their supporters who claim to be so modern in their approach to training seem to always fall back on the very old Roman tactic of killing the messenger kills the message.

The problem is not that one uses this tactic but they think they have invented this tactic.

 

[Don Roley]

I am just personally sick of the whole thing. I do not want to contribute to the ruckus on the internet, but some of the stuff I just can't sit still while I see it go on.

I see that a Toshindo home study member that was banned from here has joined Phil's web site to talk about how Hayes had no knowledge of this coming. If even one tenth of the stuff I have heard here in Japan is true, I can't see how he could not have known. Dale was trying to let him know 17 years ago and he just kept presenting the same story to the world.

Now people are attacking Hatsumi for making this public gesture. After all the problems with people being led to believe that Hayes was doing things like use the Kukishinden name on his certificates, a public gesture that we should not believe this was cool seems to be the least I would do if I were in that position. And Hayes not only seems to be supporting the attackers, but going after the honbu administrator as Dale points out.

I think that the best thing would be if Hayes just made an announcement that he was not going to use anything Bujinkan related in his advertisements of comments and make a clean break. He goes his way, the Bujinkan goes its way and we try to just avoid any bad publicity between us. But I do not think that is going to happen based on the latest post from Hayes' blog shows.

But, on the other hand, I do not think that we should be making a big fuss over things like this. I think the ball is in Hayes's court and he has the chance to do the right thing. If he takes it, and the announcement goes poof, then there would be a lot more clarity and a lot less tension.