Anyone familiar with Chung Do Kwan?

[gyoja]

How many of those have someone who isn't high enough rank?

Let's take this further: what if the school was being run by a green belt? Would you suggest someone try that school out?

Is that a TKD specific thing with not being able to teach solo as a 3rd degree? Could you teach while under the umbrella of a 4th degree somewhere?

 

[skribs]

Is that a TKD specific thing with not being able to teach solo as a 3rd degree? Could you teach while under the umbrella of a 4th degree somewhere?

I think most martial arts that have a belt system have a requirement that you be a certain belt. And those requirements I think have gotten more stringent over time.

For example, I think it used to be common in BJJ to have blue belts opening gyms, because a blue belt may be the highest belt in a town. Nowadays, I think it would raise eyebrows if a brown belt opened a gym on their own, because there are so many black belts now.

In every TKD organization I've looked at, you need to be 4th or 5th degree to become a Master. At the very least, it's Master rank that's required to promote students to black belts. Often it's needed to promote students through colored belts as well. The typical arrangement for a school owner who is underranked would be that they teach the classes, and then the Master would come to town to judge the belt tests. Or maybe the Master would grant permission for the instructor to promote through colored belts, but the Master would need to come to town to judge the black belt tests.

Thing is, if I'm going to go this route, then I'm basically looking for the same thing I'm already looking for. A third party of higher rank than me to come and judge my students (instead of a third party of higher rank judging me).

There would be no hard requirements for rank if I'm unaffiliated. But by pretty much universal standards in TKD organizations, I'm underranked to be the top dog. I'm looking for an umbrella that would provide me with the ability to teach what I want to teach, how I want to teach it, but would offer me the legitimacy of having someone higher rank than me in charge of my promotions.

 

[gyoja]

I think most martial arts that have a belt system have a requirement that you be a certain belt. And those requirements I think have gotten more stringent over time.

For example, I think it used to be common in BJJ to have blue belts opening gyms, because a blue belt may be the highest belt in a town. Nowadays, I think it would raise eyebrows if a brown belt opened a gym on their own, because there are so many black belts now.

In every TKD organization I've looked at, you need to be 4th or 5th degree to become a Master. At the very least, it's Master rank that's required to promote students to black belts. Often it's needed to promote students through colored belts as well. The typical arrangement for a school owner who is underranked would be that they teach the classes, and then the Master would come to town to judge the belt tests. Or maybe the Master would grant permission for the instructor to promote through colored belts, but the Master would need to come to town to judge the black belt tests.

Thing is, if I'm going to go this route, then I'm basically looking for the same thing I'm already looking for. A third party of higher rank than me to come and judge my students (instead of a third party of higher rank judging me).

There would be no hard requirements for rank if I'm unaffiliated. But by pretty much universal standards in TKD organizations, I'm underranked to be the top dog. I'm looking for an umbrella that would provide me with the ability to teach what I want to teach, how I want to teach it, but would offer me the legitimacy of having someone higher rank than me in charge of my promotions.

Got it. We need a master in order to test black belts. They also bring support for the tests (1st degree test requires at least three black belts to assist). So if I understand you correctly, if you can find an association to join, you could possibly open your school and use their masters for promotion until you receive your 4th degree?

 

[skribs]

Got it. We need a master in order to test black belts. They also bring support for the tests (1st degree test requires at least three black belts to assist). So if I understand you correctly, if you can find an association to join, you could possibly open your school and use their masters for promotion until you receive your 4th degree?

Yes.

But as I said, part of the question for me is how much freedom do I have? Alternatively, how much do I like their material if I am required to use their material instead of my own?

 

[gyoja]

Yes.

But as I said, part of the question for me is how much freedom do I have? Alternatively, how much do I like their material if I am required to use their material instead of my own?

Is there a school with a couple of hours where you could interview with the owner? I’m asking because I assume that membership would be easier for you to attain if a master recommended you.

 

[skribs]

Is there a school with a couple of hours where you could interview with the owner? I’m asking because I assume that membership would be easier for you to attain if a master recommended you.

For the organization in this thread? 10 hours is the closest. Several states away. I reached out to them with the contact info on their website a few days ago and haven't heard back. The longer it goes, the less likely I'm going to get a reply.

There's a UFAF (CNS/CKD) school that's a 2+ hour drive from me. I'm north of Austin and those are mostly in the Houston area.

There's some ATA and Tiger Rock schools near me, but I definitely know those aren't the right fit. For one, I know they're very form-heavy, which I'm trying to get away from. I know ATA has a point system for promotion that I really don't want to play with.

The next-closest KKW school specifically said they don't have a place for me in their school, because I'm too high rank to be a student, and I'm not "part of the family" to be an instructor.

There's ITF in Austin. I haven't really looked into ITF. I'm kind of on the fence with it. On the one hand, I know there's a lot of hero worship of General Choi. I believe there's a lot of rote memorization, at least from discussions I've had with folks. And my Master was very much against ITF for political reasons. However, I have a lot of respect for @Earl Weiss, and Ginger Ninja Trickster's videos on youtube were very helpful for me when I first started TKD, and later when I started looking at tricking kicks.

Looks like there's a lot of TSD in the intermediate area. I believe TSD is very similar to my style, probably closer than KKW. Half of the TSD schools have "Karate" in the name, though. They might be a place to check out. In terms of the type of mentor I'm looking for, I don't see any difference between that mentorship coming from TKD or TSD. There's also some Shotokan Karate, which I feel is the closest Karate style to TKD.

I may start looking into some of those.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Is that a TKD specific thing with not being able to teach solo as a 3rd degree? Could you teach while under the umbrella of a 4th degree somewhere?

No. It's a KKW thing. One of the schools I work with is run by a 2nd Dan and her 1st Dan husband.

 

[skribs]

No. It's a KKW thing. One of the schools I work with is run by a 2nd Dan and her 1st Dan husband.

Do they handle promotions in-house or do they need someone (i.e. you) to come in and oversee the tests?

Are they operating their own curriculum, or someone else's? Are they running the school on their own or as a franchise under a higher-ranking Master?

 

[gyoja]

No. It's a KKW thing. One of the schools I work with is run by a 2nd Dan and her 1st Dan husband.

I was curious because we can teach solo beginning at 3rd Dan. I have also seen exceptions made for 2nd Dans that had a local 4th Dan to observe promotions.

 

[gyoja]

For the organization in this thread? 10 hours is the closest. Several states away. I reached out to them with the contact info on their website a few days ago and haven't heard back. The longer it goes, the less likely I'm going to get a reply.

There's a UFAF (CNS/CKD) school that's a 2+ hour drive from me. I'm north of Austin and those are mostly in the Houston area.

There's some ATA and Tiger Rock schools near me, but I definitely know those aren't the right fit. For one, I know they're very form-heavy, which I'm trying to get away from. I know ATA has a point system for promotion that I really don't want to play with.

The next-closest KKW school specifically said they don't have a place for me in their school, because I'm too high rank to be a student, and I'm not "part of the family" to be an instructor.

There's ITF in Austin. I haven't really looked into ITF. I'm kind of on the fence with it. On the one hand, I know there's a lot of hero worship of General Choi. I believe there's a lot of rote memorization, at least from discussions I've had with folks. And my Master was very much against ITF for political reasons. However, I have a lot of respect for @Earl Weiss, and Ginger Ninja Trickster's videos on youtube were very helpful for me when I first started TKD, and later when I started looking at tricking kicks.

Looks like there's a lot of TSD in the intermediate area. I believe TSD is very similar to my style, probably closer than KKW. Half of the TSD schools have "Karate" in the name, though. They might be a place to check out. In terms of the type of mentor I'm looking for, I don't see any difference between that mentorship coming from TKD or TSD. There's also some Shotokan Karate, which I feel is the closest Karate style to TKD.

I may start looking into some of those.

You could inquire with the TSD schools. Back in the 90s, we had a few students who came to us from TKD. They would work with me for a period of time, then we would present them for certification. They kept their rank during this time as well.

 

[skribs]

You could inquire with the TSD schools. Back in the 90s, we had a few students who came to us from TKD. They would work with me for a period of time, then we would present them for certification. They kept their rank during this time as well.

It's something I hadn't really considered until now. I was mostly looking at other TKD organizations or finding a TKD mentor. I've also thought of my school strictly as a TKD school, but I could just as easily see it being a TSD school (for the reasons I've mentioned).

These schools are close enough I could establish a relationship with them, but far enough that I wouldn't be seen as competition.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do they handle promotions in-house or do they need someone (i.e. you) to come in and oversee the tests?

They handle them on their own. Teachers can promote up to 1 level below their own rank, so they can promote their students up to 1st Dan.

Are they operating their own curriculum, or someone else's?

They teach the curriculum that we taught them.

Are they running the school on their own or as a franchise under a higher-ranking Master?

They run their school as a community service, just like the school they trained in. My role is, essentially, to continue training the teachers.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I was curious because we can teach solo beginning at 3rd Dan. I have also seen exceptions made for 2nd Dans that had a local 4th Dan to observe promotions.

It's entirely up to the org. We consider 1st Dan a teaching rank.

 

[wab25]

There would be no hard requirements for rank if I'm unaffiliated. But by pretty much universal standards in TKD organizations, I'm underranked to be the top dog. I'm looking for an umbrella that would provide me with the ability to teach what I want to teach, how I want to teach it, but would offer me the legitimacy of having someone higher rank than me in charge of my promotions.

If you want to teach your curriculum the way you want to.... why would you want another organization, that does not teach what you teach, to give you legitimacy? How would they know who to promote when they don't know your curriculum?

You have your own curriculum that you want to teach... you have a legitimate 3rd degree black belt (you are not a green belt opening a school...) You do not need an organization to give you a piece of paper. (if you want the piece of paper that bad, there are plenty of places that will make you 4th, 5th, 6th... 10 dan for a check.... Let me know, I can forward you the invitations I get... I can even get you included in any of a number of martial arts halls of fame)

In my opinion.... if you have to learn a bunch of other forms, or alternate ways to do the forms or put focus on things your curriculum does not focus on... you are watering down your curriculum for a piece of paper. I am assuming that you have a pretty good curriculum, you have enough time training, and being an assistant.... and I know you have put in a lot of thought into what you want to teach. Having some extra piece of paper, that you got, just to have, does not add legitimacy to your curriculum. Watering down your curriculum, with bits from other arts that you are trying to get away from... devalues your curriculum.

 

[J. Pickard]

I never met Edward Sells personally, but he does have quite vibrant story, at least in the writing of it.
He built quite a dynasty that still thrives today, so I aver he did more right than wrong.

I have trained with GM Ed Sell dozens of times as our dojang was very involved in the association and have had dinner with him on several occasions. The man was very aware of his achievements and how impressive they were. He was not what I would call a humble man, but I suppose when you accomplish so much it's hard to be a humble man and an honest man at the same time. When he died is really when the, for lack of a better term, "idol worship" began in the association and is a big part of why we left.

 

[skribs]

If you want to teach your curriculum the way you want to.... why would you want another organization, that does not teach what you teach, to give you legitimacy?

Many different industries have third-party audits. These auditors will look at organizations that are uniquely designed and configured. I don't see any reason why that couldn't happen in martial arts.

The more experience I get, the more I'm able to look at different styles and forms and tell what is a stylistic choice vs. what is just sloppy. For example, I watched a couple videos of TSD Hyungs to see how they compare to the forms I've learned and the ones I've created.

In one of them, the performer had a very distinct style in the way he stepped and chambered. It's not the style I would use, but I could tell he was very deliberate and precise in his movements. He had a lot of snap power, good pacing in the form, and good kiyhap. If I were judging him on his ability, I would judge him favorably, despite the stylistic differences.

I watched another video, and the performer had a style much closer to mine. But his posture was bad (leaning back away from the hips) and he had 0 snap in his techniques. Even though his style is closer to mine, I would judge that performance unfavorably.

This is also why I want a remote mentor. If I talk through and explain my reasoning for doing things the way I do them, I can get feedback as to the pros and cons of what I'm doing. I can get style opinions, I can get concrete "you think you're doing X, but you're actually doing Y". For example, one thing I noticed recently in the mirror is that my back stances had gone from an L to a parallelogram, which is NOT how I want to do them. That's something I noticed, but it's something another Master could notice as well. "You say it's an L shape, but your front knee is turned in."

And we still have the problem that at some point I'm going to want to promote people to 3rd degree. In general, you can only promote to one degree below you. So my students would have a cap at 2nd. If they open their own school, their students cap at 1st. At some point I'm going to need rank. I'd rather have that path established before I open a school than after.

 

[wab25]

Martial Arts has a very low bar, if any at all, to teach. There are no set standards. Each organization can do what they want.... each individual can do what they want. This is both good and bad. It means that people can put together a new system or new art and teach. It also means that sometimes, people teach who should not be teaching.

Many different industries have third-party audits. These auditors will look at organizations that are uniquely designed and configured. I don't see any reason why that couldn't happen in martial arts.

No reason not to do this. Even if you start your own independent school... it might actually be a good thing to do. But it should not hold you back from teaching.

Look... if you believe your curriculum is worth teaching and that you can teach, don't let some piece of paper hold you up. If however, you are not sure of your curriculum or your ability to teach it.... then be honest with yourself, and seek to make the needed improvements. If papers come they come.

For the record, I am assuming you have a good curriculum and could teach it well. This is about how you feel about it. I am supporting you in starting up your own program.... and suggesting you run your curriculum, the way you want.... (and all I get is a thumbs down for supporting you...)

 

[skribs]

No reason not to do this. Even if you start your own independent school... it might actually be a good thing to do. But it should not hold you back from teaching.

As I said, I want this mechanism in place before I open.

 

[jks9199]

Kind off-topic for this thread. No matter what (3rd degree, self-promoted 4th degree, third-party promoted 4th degree) this has always been the plan. Start with 1-2 classes a night, 2-3 nights per week, build up a student base enough to support me when I quit my day job and transition full time.

Do you know the best way to make a small fortune in the martial arts?

Start with a large fortune, and open a school.

Very seriously -- if your goal is to run a martial arts business to support yourself and your family... start with business classes in a college. Learn how to run a business, not a martial arts school. There's a reason so many commercial schools go out of business, and why so many of them are thinly disguised day care businesses focusing on before and after school programs and kiddie classes. I'm not saying you can't make a go of it, but that you really need to understand and handle the business side AS A BUSINESS. You'll find out that your "business plan" above is probably unrealistic...

 

[HighKick]

I have trained with GM Ed Sell dozens of times as our dojang was very involved in the association and have had dinner with him on several occasions. The man was very aware of his achievements and how impressive they were. He was not what I would call a humble man, but I suppose when you accomplish so much it's hard to be a humble man and an honest man at the same time. When he died is really when the, for lack of a better term, "idol worship" began in the association and is a big part of why we left.

That is a shame. I guess it is hard to follow that act.
I imagine it will surely come to an end that farther away from the original version things get.