ANY Fighting Style can work if you train it right.

[jobo]

Yeah, and I have you the beginnings of a long list of sources that when taken together explain that and other aspects of karate's origin and purpose.

Specifically though Funakoshi goes into detail in karatedo kyohan about when and why tl use karate and choki motobu concluded after years of testing his art and getting beat down by a wrestler that it was simply not designed for fighting in the ring combat sense.

so no actual source you can quote

I didn't say anything about ring fighting, just ordinary fighting

 

[drop bear]

Please stop confusing the thread with nonsense.

You started it by posting this thread.

Is boxing a style?

 

[drop bear]

You have no argument that actually counters my point so instead you throw muck trying to obfuscate your failure.

Yet it's precisely because of this kind of foolishness that I have to be so specific.

Your first contribution was to bring up people pretending they had psychic powers. If you will drag a discussion into the gutter on page one what do you expect.

So no, I don't include made up styles that try to win through good vibes. I woukd rathrr i didn't have to waste time with caveats for foolishness but, there you are.

I don't know where you got anything about attaching good systems. I think it's something to do with your complete inability to demonstrate the impact of style over training whole refusing to acknowledge the fact. Thus you conflate statements about training options with your idea of good fighting styles.

Lastly the criteria for what works. Since there are two people in the fight, I thought seeing a fighter make it a good fight should be enough. After all, nobody wins everyone so why would we expect consistent victory when the other guy could just be better. Also arts like aikido will never havebring fighting objectives so seems a silly measure to apply...

Clearly this is too complex a line of reasoning, so fine, set your criteria at 100 victories in a row before you can accept a style works. What does it matter??? The point was that with improved training there is improved performance, something a 5 yr old could reason out, coupled with the reasoning for why style is virtually unimportant for getting a good fighter.

None of us are actually going to test the proposition so set whatever b.s. criteria you like...

But here's the thing... You described and advocated my exact point already. You just were so desperate to find a reason to keep style bashing that you didn't notice yourself repeating my argument back to me as if you'd found the chink in my armour at last.

But instead you conceded this debate. So you can go round and round misrepresenting the discussion, or you can man up and admit you're wrong and move on. I won't judge. Honest.

That was an incredibly complicated way to say " I am rubber you are glue"

But now we are finished with the hyperbole can we get back to this idea that when you say all systems work. You dont mean all systems.

And you can't realy mesure work.

 

[DaveB]

so no actual source you can quote

I didn't say anything about ring fighting, just ordinary fighting

References aren't enough?
Sorry I don't have time to research for you?

Why don't you quote your source then? Where did you learn that karate was for beating up people who irritate you?

 

[jobo]

References aren't enough?
Sorry I don't have time to research for you?

Why don't you quote your source then? Where did you learn that karate was for beating up people who irritate you?

its you who is basing a whole very long thread on saying what is and what is not a ma based on its original design purpose, its rather for you to back that up with some reference as to how you have,arrived at your decision. Karate works perfectly well as a tool of aggression, you show it as being only for self defence.

I agree very largely with your original post, maybe not all, but certainly a lot of ma can be very effective fighting tools if trained as such. Why you have got into this, boxing, karate are not ma I don't know, its just,silly and,detracts from your original post

 

[DaveB]

its you who is basing a whole very long thread on saying what is and what is not a ma based on its original design purpose, its rather for you to back that up with some reference as to how you have,arrived at your decision. Karate works perfectly well as a tool of aggression, you show it as being only for self defence.

I agree very largely with your original post, maybe not all, but certainly a lot of ma can be very effective fighting tools if trained as such. Why you have got into this, boxing, karate are not ma I don't know, its just,silly and,detracts from your original post

No I'm not. This what is and isn't ma is a purely tangential issue. It has nothing to do with the main point of the thread beyond what expectations one should have of an activity.

I spent many years researching karate history and application you can take my word for it or better look it up yourself but it's unimportant both to me and to the discussion.

 

[jobo]

No I'm not. This what is and isn't ma is a purely tangential issue. It has nothing to do with the main point of the thread beyond what expectations one should have of an activity.

I spent many years researching karate history and application you can take my word for it or better look it up yourself but it's unimportant both to me and to the discussion.

if its unimportant why did you say karate wasnt a marshal art, based on its original design. That a pretty fundamental statement made to support you main point,

you appear to be building a case that all ma,are,effective by just excluding arts that don't fit your view

 

[DaveB]

I never said karate wasn't a martial art, it clearly is.

I said a martial art is an activity created to preserve the user from violence through combat.
I said karate was designed for self defence, what is self defence if not preserving ones self from violence???

Also this is a side point it has nothing to do with my main argument that training determines effectiveness, not style. I don't understand why you are conflating the two points?

The only limiting factor I placed on what was included was that it used conventionally recognised striking or grappling to achieve its aims so as to avoid discussing chi blasts.

 

[jobo]

I never said karate wasn't a martial art, it clearly is.

I said a martial art is an activity created to preserve the user from violence through combat.
I said karate was designed for self defence, what is self defence if not preserving ones self from violence???

Also this is a side point it has nothing to do with my main argument that training determines effectiveness, not style. I don't understand why you are conflating the two points?

The only limiting factor I placed on what was included was that it used cobvwntionally recognised striking or grappling to achieve its aims so as to avoid discussing chi blasts.

you said something along the lines of karate wasn't,a,combat system as it was designed for self defence

 

[jobo]

I never said karate wasn't a martial art, it clearly is.

I said a martial art is an activity created to preserve the user from violence through combat.
I said karate was designed for self defence, what is self defence if not preserving ones self from violence???

Also this is a side point it has nothing to do with my main argument that training determines effectiveness, not style. I don't understand why you are conflating the two points?

The only limiting factor I placed on what was included was that it used conventionally recognised striking or grappling to achieve its aims so as to avoid discussing chi blasts.

but let's run with your main point, how would you train wing Chun to make it an effective system, with out changing it so much that it is no longer wing chun

 

[DaveB]

Personally I look at what the activity was created for when defining an activity.

Karate was created for self defence, the principles and techniques are for self defence so it is a martial art.

So yes you can do a martial art for sport, but the purpose of a martial art isn't sport. If I knock in a nail with my screwdriver it is still a screwdriver. It doesn't make it a hammer.

This is what I said.

You are going to need to start using the quote function.

 

[DaveB]

I don't train wing chun so I don't know.

A recent discussion here suggested it couldn't fight at range, and I suggested improving footwork drills so the students are faster and better at timing entry and better at evasion when not close in.

Tell me what you think is wrong with wing chun and I'll see what I can come up with.

 

[jobo]

I don't train wing chun so I don't know.

A recent discussion here suggested it couldn't fight at range, and I suggested improving footwork drills so the students are faster and better at timing entry and better at evasion when not close in.

Tell me what you think is wrong with wing chun and I'll see what I can come up with.

we this is your,claim that any ma can be effective if you train it right, ok pick an art and then tell me how you would training right to make it more effective

 

[DaveB]

we this is your,claim that any ma can be effective if you train it right, ok pick an art and then tell me how you would training right to make it more effective

I posted a video that covers this for aikido.
Personally I don't have a problem with any ma style that I've encountered. That's why I posted this thread.

People see a guy get beaten up and decide it's the style at fault. I'm saying that when a guy gets beaten up if there was a flaw it was in the training.

If you follow my reasoning through this discussion you see that blaming the style doesn't actually make sense. That doesn't make me an expert on every ma style nor do I need to be because the point is that the issue is independent of style.

 

[jobo]

I posted a video that covers this for aikido.
Personally I don't have a problem with any ma style that I've encountered. That's why I posted this thread.

People see a guy get beaten up and decide it's the style at fault. I'm saying that when a guy gets beaten up if there was a flaw it was in the training.

If you follow my reasoning through this discussion you see that blaming the style doesn't actually make sense. That doesn't make me an expert on every ma style nor do I need to be because the point is that the issue is independent of style.

so how would you change the training of,aikido to make it effective?

 

[DaveB]

so how would you change the training of,aikido to make it effective?

Video

 

[DaveB]

so how would you change the training of,aikido to make it effective?

Personally the aikido I've seen has been trained using strike templates rather than actual strikes. So a big lunging punch or a big overhand chop, instead of punching and kicking as people actually do.

Get them training against natural punches and combinations as in the video. Train footwork and expand on their leading skills to draw out bigger punches.

Practice intercepting and blending for much shorter weight shifts and practice how to manage when your opponent resists your locks.

 

[drop bear]

I posted a video that covers this for aikido.
Personally I don't have a problem with any ma style that I've encountered. That's why I posted this thread.

People see a guy get beaten up and decide it's the style at fault. I'm saying that when a guy gets beaten up if there was a flaw it was in the training.

If you follow my reasoning through this discussion you see that blaming the style doesn't actually make sense. That doesn't make me an expert on every ma style nor do I need to be because the point is that the issue is independent of style.

Exept yellow bamboo, boxing and wreslting. One was magic. And the other two were games.

Go on. Make this work.

 

[jobo]

Personally the aikido I've seen has been trained using strike templates rather than actual strikes. So a big lunging punch or a big overhand chop, instead of punching and kicking as people actually do.

Get them training against natural punches and combinations as in the video. Train footwork and expand on their leading skills to draw out bigger punches.

Practice intercepting and blending for much shorter weight shifts and practice how to manage when your opponent resists your locks.

so when you have done all that is it still aikidio?
you can improve anything if you change it so much it becomes something else, some of the,striking arts can be vastly improved by changing them to MT, that's what I would do to improve wing chun anyway

 

[drop bear]

so when you have done all that is it still aikidio?
you can improve anything if you change it so much it becomes something else, some of the,striking arts can be vastly improved by changing them to MT, that's what I would do to improve wing chun anyway