"American" Taekwondo

[dancingalone]

I've noticed these styles are becoming more and more prevalent. American Taekwondo, American Tang Soo Do, American Karate. Haven't seen American Wing Chun yet, but I bet that's coming.

Any thoughts on them? For or against? Is it just a label?

 

[Manny]

My Kenpo sensei once told me when Ed parker come to my country and wento to the dojo of his representative (Master Hernan Carrasco back in those days) when Mr.Parker saw the advertisement in the dojo's windows asked Master Carrasco why he put on them Kenpo Karate Americano or Kenpo Americano and not Kenpo Karate Mexicano or Kenpo Mexicano. Henan Carrasco asked Mr. parker why? and he answered something like this.... Because you are teaching Mexicans in Mexican soil and the Mexican Way in Sapnish and with all the Mexican way of thinking and customs.

Just my two cents.

Manhy

 

[dancingalone]

Good story, Manny. Let me offer for consideration: is taekwondo a Korean martial art? Is it still taekwondo if you leave out the Korean vocabulary and perhaps some of the Confucian overtones?

 

[terryl965]

To me for it to be TKD it needs it Korean heritage. People tend to want there cake and eat it too, so in this dy and age they need that American next to it to matket to the masses.

 

[dancingalone]

To me for it to be TKD it needs it Korean heritage. People tend to want there cake and eat it too, so in this dy and age they need that American next to it to matket to the masses.

I don't regard it as just marketing. In many cases, there's significant changes made to Americanize the training, such as an outright rejection of Korean terms for the techniques. Counting is in English and the moral philosophy is frequently drawn from places like the Golden Rule, the Bible, or even good old American patriotism.

I don't necessarily make a value judgement on this, but I'll put you into the taekwondo = Korean camp, Terry. Thanks.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I don't regard it as just marketing. In many cases, there's significant changes made to Americanize the training, such as an outright rejection of Korean terms for the techniques.

quote]

Therein lies the issue. Many styles may call themselves "American XXXX", but I am sure there is a whole spectrum of things that follow or change the XXX so it is difficult to generalize if it is good, bad, different or whatever.

As far as Korean terminology is concerned, I find whether or not it is used is of little importance. This is becaiuse I like others am I product of my training. Except when teaching a group of Koreans General Choi used only english names for the techniques, and I am fairly certain that while his first 2 books were in Korean, the subsequent and most in depthe works were in english, although Korean names for techniques were listed.

On the international level, the Korean names were the universal language in part becuase many of the original teachers being Korean did not know the english names.

Further, the english names a mostly very intuitve so it eliminates a big impediment to learning for many if only the korean names are used.

 

[dancingalone]

Thank you, Mr. Weiss. Could you perhaps share what training with General Choi was like? Did he ever discuss Korean history or current events in his classes and seminars? Was there ever efforts to impart anything more than the physical practice of TKD?

 

[terryl965]

I am not so much TKD = Korean, what I am saying people back in the seventies where more apt to train in something that they thought was a American version more so than a Korean version. My father alwats said to many people would not let there childern learn a Lorean Art do to the fact of the Korean war, whether this was true or not people saw it that way. American was attrached to alot of arts simply for marketing maybe not GM Rhee but I remember Allen Stern saying once he only knew and thought American Karate and TKD, what that really meant is beyond me.

We here in America are proud people and want to believe we are the mighty and can make everything better because it is American. I know I am proud of being American but I also believe alot of Asian instructor used the marketing tiil to there benefit as well.

 

[dancingalone]

American was attrached to alot of arts simply for marketing maybe not GM Rhee but I remember Allen Stern saying once he only knew and thought American Karate and TKD, what that really meant is beyond me.

I heard that too, but I thought it was a Texas/US pride thing. Of course I understand that Jhoon Rhee focused on the physical aspects of TKD when he was in Texas, so if Rhee ever received any philosophical training from Won Kuk Lee, he sure didn't teach it, at least in Texas. I understand Rhee became a US citizen after he moved to Maryland, and he's very much an American patriot these days, proudly calling what he teaches American Tae Kwon Do.

 

[terryl965]

I heard that too, but I thought it was a Texas/US pride thing. Of course I understand that Jhoon Rhee focused on the physical aspects of TKD when he was in Texas, so if Rhee ever received any philosophical training from Won Kuk Lee, he sure didn't teach it, at least in Texas. I understand Rhee became a US citizen after he moved to Maryland, and he's very much an American patriot these days, proudly calling what he teaches American Tae Kwon Do.

This is absolutely true and I bellieve alot of Older Korean Masters that came here have adopted the American way of life and liberty.

 

[RSweet]

Let's face it, most of us have to post whatever it is that helps get people in the door. Our school that was destroyed in Katrina had one thing that survived - the huge KARATE sign that Thomas placed on the roof to get attention. People here knew karate but not taekwondo. It more than doubled our walk-ins. You can't teach it if you don't have the students.

 

[ATC]

Well we use to be called "America Taekwondo Center" meaning that it was a center for Taekwondo in America. Still Korean but just taught in America.

Notice that we were not called "American Taekwondo Center". Although many called us this anyway. I guess it was our owners way of playing on words that satisfied him as well as gave others an impression that was not really there.

We have since broken away from our parent school and now call ourselves "TEAMA Taekwondo"

Now I have to somehow change my screen name.

 

[Balrog]

To me for it to be TKD it needs it Korean heritage. People tend to want their cake and eat it too, so in this dy and age they need that American next to it to market to the masses.

I agree with the heritage aspect of it. The history of martial arts training in general and your style in particular should be taught to every student.

However, it doesn't have to be taught in Korean. For example, the ATA uses a limited Korean vocabulary: Joonbee, Bahroh, Charyut, Kyungyeh, etc., plus learning to count to 10. But all the techniques are referred to in English. The Korean names are available if we want to learn and use them, but they are not required.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Thank you, Mr. Weiss. Could you perhaps share what training with General Choi was like? Did he ever discuss Korean history or current events in his classes and seminars? Was there ever efforts to impart anything more than the physical practice of TKD?

Many things were addressed. These included:
1. How to teach. Using precise commands and instructions. How to describe / explain techniques. How to determine if an application for a technique was "good". Teaching fundamental techniques before teaching the pattern that contained it.
2. Philosophy vis a vis the tenets, particularly courtesy being the most important and pattern history.
3. History vis a vis the patterns. But it was later, while reading an MA book unrelated to TKD I came across the idea that for easten cultures the theme of a story may be more important than the accuracy of the story. (I really do not recall anything in the way of current events.)
4. Combat / fighting theory and startegy. From positioning to not leaving yourself exposed.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I don't regard it as just marketing. In many cases, there's significant changes made to Americanize the training, such as an outright rejection of Korean terms for the techniques. Counting is in English and the moral philosophy is frequently drawn from places like the Golden Rule, the Bible, or even good old American patriotism.

I don't necessarily make a value judgement on this, but I'll put you into the taekwondo = Korean camp, Terry. Thanks.

I don't practice TKD, but you could put me in that camp as well.
I practice a system of traditional Japanese arts. Discipline in our organization is fairly strict, and that includes following Japanese customs (bowing and dojo etiquette) as well as knowing the Japanese names for everything (techniques, positions, target areas, weapons and items).

Even apart from the heritage / authenticity angle, it is a matter of practicality. Every single dojo in our organization has the exact same way of naming things, dojo etiquette, grade requirements, etc. I could walk into any Genbukan dojo and blend right in, based on my level. If there is an international taikai (twice per year or so) people from dozens of countries get together and have no problem training together and understanding each other.

 

[StuartA]

How to determine if an application for a technique was "good".

can you expand on this more Master Weiss. its (obviously) an area of signifcant interest to me.

thanks,

Stuart
Ps. What I've heard is that Gen Choi's thoughts were 'if it works.. then its good'!

 

[tellner]

Tae Kwon Do is Karate. Yudo is Judo. Gumdo is Kendo.
They are as Korean as American Tae Kwon Do is American.

 

[scottie]

This is absolutely true and I bellieve alot of Older Korean Masters that came here have adopted the American way of life and liberty.

Billy Hong, was a war orphan when the Korean war ended. He made his way to Seoul, lived at the WTF headquarters, and trained every day. He once told a friend that all he did was clean the training hall, train vigorously for hours at a time, eat, and sleep, and then he did it all again, day after day, until he lost track of when it was day and when it was night. He lived to master the kicks of tae kwon do.

Master Hong introduced Tae Kwon Do to the Southeast. Master Hong, Feeling indebted to the US Mastered the English Language and only taught only in English. He also clung to the culture.

He wanted to bring tae kwon do to the United States. He secured the necessary papers, located a former US Army officer who had befriended him during the war, and settled in Anderson South Carolina where he enrolled in college.
I would venture to say his story and others like his could one reason Tae Kwon Do has become "American". Because the people who brought it here want to be "American" or fit in with "American people" Then you have American People on the Other hand who went to Korea, Learned the art in Korean, and brought the culture home. (Then of course you have like others have said you have good ole’ greed and naming for sales.)

As far as American Karate, the reason my art is called American is because it has been mixed and turned into a mutt. Which I don't think is the case with most schools of TKD.
:asian: